Hannibal's Cavalry

Okay so I'm reading this really well written book called "Hannibal" Ernle Bradford.

Anyway, Bradford implies that very few of Hannibals African troops were cavalry. In the description for Sacred Band Cavalry (one of my own personal favorites) it suggests that they were under the command of Hannibal for the entire course of Hannibals Italian campaign. Is this true? How many of these Carthagian (non-Iberian) cavalrymen were there under Hannibal's command? Where they greater in numbers than Hannibal's Numidians or Gallic cavalry? How were they equiped? What was their actual combat effectiveness? Were they still there at Zama?

I can see the Carthagians as being a major faction is EB (unlike in vanilla where they get trounced by Numidia). Therefore the SBC will undoutedly be one of those major units that needs to be modelled accurately. Like for example: were they trained in the Macedonian style to charge without a shield or were they actually equiped with the type of round horse shields that the Romans and barbarians preferred? Chainmail or muscled breastplate? How were their mounts? Did they drop their original African mounts for the superior Spanish and Gallic ones?

And of course the last and most important question is how they compare to equite in terms of fighting ability.

They kick the Equite's ass, badly.

The Sacred Band of Astarte was a cavalry unit that wore iron armor and carried a 3.5m lance. They fought in the Greco-steppe manner with a two handed lance. Their horses were barded with iron lamellar. Their horses were a mix of the african (arabian) breed and the andalusian (iberian) breed. They were on a par with Hetairoi or Granpavar (elite) cataphracts, but were trained from birth as property of the temple. A predecessor of the Mamluk, essentially, but from the second and third sons of noble families.

The Iberian heavy cavalry was what hannibal had with him at Cannae. They were (obviously) far superior to the Roman cavalry of the time, made more so by their status as a western sort of very heavy cavalry (think cataphractarii) with barded horses and high quality mail or scale armor. Their only handicap was the smaller spear and shield they carried.

You'll see quite a unique and proper Carthage, I assure you. ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Urnamma

A latter day Mamluk, essentially

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er.. wouldn't it be the other way around? the mamluks came after the carthies, right?

anyway thanks for the cool description!
~:cheers:

No idea what you're talking about... ~;)

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A predecessor of the Mamluk, essentially, but from the second and third sons of noble families.

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~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Big_John

the mamluks came after the carthies, right?

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The 'carthies'? lol :laugh2: ~:cheers:

Urnamma, I'm longing to see those 'carthies'. ~:)

i've been edited into inanity. :disappointed:

Let´s just hope the Iberian and Celtiberian tribes are portraid in a decent matter as well (dont get me started on vanilla´s Iberia). Even if it is done by "hitching a ride" with Carthage.

I´m getting tempted into writing an "Iberia Manifestus"....... ~;)

Sarcasm: we have a team of crack Portuguese and Spanish members working on Iberia, along with a lone American (myself). I'm sure you'll see quite a faction, along with some Lusitanians ~;)

So long as they´re not using the plates of Osprey´s "Armies of the Carthaginian Wars" as basis for Iberian Infantry...

...Thank you very much, kind sirs. :bow:

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So long as they´re not using the plates of Osprey´s "Armies of the Carthaginian Wars" as basis for Iberian Infantry...

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Indeed... *shudders*

Actually, i think CA did a decent job of portraying the Iberians as they actually looked (even though they would look better without team colours). Look in Osprey's "Rome's Enemies: Spanish Armies", illustrated by Angus McBride, and you'll see that the soldiers did indeed wear the circular pectorale and the caetra (small shield), and also the bascinet helmet.

PS: I would have posted the image itself, but i'm nervous about copyright issues. :deal2: Can someone enlighten me about how i should go about posting images from books, people on these forums seem to do it alot. :embarassed:


- Panda

Well, I scan them, and then post them here:
www.imageshack.us

It is extremely simple. Just make sure to include the (IMG) and (/IMG) tags - replace the parentheses with [].

so i take it that means there are no copyright infringment issues with posting scanned plates from osprey books?

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Golden rule about © stuff: Don't get caught! ~:joker:
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so i shouldn't have called the fbi and reported khlevan?

No one is making .pdfs of Osprey books and distributing them anywhere. We aren't using any Osprey material in a commercial venture, making money off of it in any way. Hell, some of our work may be -inspired- by Osprey, but nothing we release will actually come directly from an Osprey book. No, I see no issues with scanning and sharing Osprey plates. I think Osprey would benefit from such publicity.

And yes, I realize the FBI comment was a joke ;)

Well arent the Ospreys plates representations of reality?
Is reality copyrighted? These images arent 100% product of Osperys art they just show how warriors looked back then?
If not then Ospery fails in its objective if yes then there cant be copyright...

Hellenes

Wow...you´re a defense attorney in potential ~;)

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

Wow...you´re a defense attorney in potential ~;)

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Guess what im studying...

Hellenes

Personally, I'm not a big fan of osprey, so you won't see too much influence there.

After my M.A. is finished, I'll be studying law too (in addition to Ph.D. cantidacy). Bunch o damn lawyers around here. ~:cheers:

Just for the record African horses are superior to both Iberian and FAR superior to the...(chuckles)... Gallic cavalry. The Andalusian breed was brought in by the Arabs during the conquest, and not to mention Andalusian is the Arabian word for "Iberian"
The North African Barb horse was a slightly larger and stronger, though less enduring version of the Arabian which, quite frankly, is one of the best bred horses ever, even for that time. The Carthaginians did not, and certainly would not exchange their own horses for what was, in comparision, a bunch of Gallic rabble. As for the Iberians, they were indeed outstanding cavalry, and their horses were quite up to the performance of North African or Middle Eastern cavalry.
The Sacred Band Cavalry fought with two lances, a short and long one. A short, wide bladed sword, and an oval shaped shield. They were basically the very wealthy members of Carthaginian and Lybian citizens who were promoted from the Sacred Band infantry. Realistically, the Sacred Band should only be trained in Carthage and Thapsus.

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Okay so I'm reading this really well written book called "Hannibal" Ernle Bradford.

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That guy is good. Probably the best biography on Hannibal, especially if you try reading Livy first . I hate that roman bugger.

This is my first EB post, by the way. I would like to salute you all for the work you are doinig to improve- no, revolutionize- Rome: TW.

Livy is just awful. You don't have to read much before you start saying..."yeah...riggggghhhht." I recently picked up one of Connolly's books and his comments about Livy's accounts are extremely humorous (and agree well with most of what I had pieced together in various sources.) Unfortunately, Livy is the only source for some periods/events, so historians end up digging for kernels trying to seperate fact from fantasy.

As for a historian on Hannibal, I would suggest Theodore Ayrault Dodge. His book is a 700ish page military account of Hannibal's Campaign, as well as extensive Carthaginian and Roman history before and throughout the Punic Wars.

You seem to be knowledgeable about horses, so let me ask you something...


...As you probably know, the premier horse-breed of Portugal is the Cavalo Lusitano (Lusitanian Horse), what I´m asking is, can they really be traced, as breed, all the way back to ancient times?

You said that the Iberian breeds were smaller than the arabians and the andalusians....I´ve seen Lusitanian horses next to some breeds (andalusians for sure, can´t really mention any others...) and they are at least as large as any of those breeds, if anything, they appear to be wider, more muscular than most breeds I saw. So this must mean they´ve been crossed with other breeds, right?

I agree with much of what you said regarding horses ick_of_the_pick. I dunno if I agree much entirely with this statement though:

"Just for the record African horses are superior to both Iberian and FAR superior to the...(chuckles)... Gallic cavalry."

Both african and iberian breeds were very qualified in different aspects so it's difficult to position one above the other. It was exactly this reason that led the carthaginians to allegedly cross those differnet breeds to reach a more effective horse. From what I read the Iberian ones were reknowned for their strength, courage, speed, kindness and agility (sth related to be able to turn quickly in their back feet), while the African ones more known to their fleetness and endurance (where the ones the numidians used are the best example).


" It is believed that the forerunner of the Lipizzan was bred in Carthage, more than 2,000 years ago. The Carthaginian stock was bred to the Vilano, a sturdy Pyrenees horse, and with Arab and Barbary strains. The result became the fabled Andalusian of ancient Spain. "
http://www.lipizzaner.com/The_Saga.asp

"Together with the Arabian and Barb strains, the Spanish horse is responsible for founding nearly all the other recognized breeds known today. The Spanish, or Iberian horse was well known to the Romans as a superior war horse because of its strength and agility. The Romans used them under saddle and to pull their chariots. Julius Caesar wrote of the noble steeds of Hispania in Del Bello Gallico, and they are depicted in many reliefs and statuary of the period. Hannibal relied on Spanish horses as well as elephants to take him across the Alps during his 218 B.C. invasion of Italy."
http://www.lipizzaner.com/Andalusian.asp

"During the Renaissance, a new breed of horse evolved. The Spanish Moors, mating together the finest bloodlines of the time, the Arabian, the Andalusian and the stalwart Vilanos [from the Pyrenees], produced a horse that comprised the better traits of each of the other purebreds. This new strain was invincible in battle. They not only carried their riders fearlessly into battle, but because of their superb strength , coordination and their superior intelligence, they were taught defensive and offensive battle tactic of their own. With flaring nostrils and flashing eyes, they reared to their hind legs, pirouetting, sometimes literally hopping, their noble head and broad chest protecting their rider while he thrashed out with his sword. When foot soldiers advanced from behind, the stallion would leap into the air and kick out violently with his hind legs. He could balance in a haunching position, his own body shielding his rider and giving the warrior time to take careful aim with his weapon.

These were the greatest of all the noble steeds forced into the bloody battles of history. They were later to be brought to the territory of the Hapsburgs. A breeding farm was established in a little town near Trieste, called Lipizza. It was from this town that the horses begot the name Lipizzaner. With the heavy use of Spanish blood, new breeds of horses were developed throughout Europe and older, more established breeds were improved. Eighty percent of all modem breeds trace part of their lineage back to the illustrious horse of Spain. Due to a heavy infusion of Spanish blood, the English Thoroughbred breed was already well established before the arrival of the celebrated Oriental stallions.

The blood-chilling leaps into the air, the violent kicking out of the hind legs can still be seen, but now it is done as a display of rare ability seldom seen in any breed other than the Lipizzaner. The series of battle tactics is called "Airs Above the Ground". It is a highlight of the Lipizzan performance. Part of their storybook history was depicted in Walt Disney's movie, "Miracle of the White Stallions." In this film, General Patton’s Third Army during World War II told the story of the rescue of the horses."
http://www.rozylowicz.com/retirement...ipizzaner.html



http://www.lipizzaner.com/images/19_lipizzan_new.jpg
http://www.lipizzaner.com/images/22_lipizzan_new.jpg

Ain't those a beauty :)

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In fact, it is said the only age where Iberian horses were not said to be the best war horses was somewhere during the medieval ages where the 'giant' bigger breeds were prefered in order to be able to carry the excessive armour they usually did. Other than that the Iberian breeds (with original arabian/northafrican intermixing too) were considered and adopted as the best war horse through time. Here's something related to that and to Sarcasm's doubt relating the Lusitano's origins:

"Ironically, the very breeds that the Andalusian spawned were to be his near undoing. Size became the fad in Europe. The Neapolitan, the Norman and the English Thoroughbred grew in popularity and in numbers until finally, they surpassed the position of the Spanish horse. The Andalusian breed was all but extinct in all areas except Spain and Portugal, where it became known as the Lusitano.

Then tragically, the plague followed by famine, nearly pushed the breed into oblivion. Fortunately, the horses survived in a few mountainous areas of Spain, notably at the Carthusian Monastery. The animals of this herd are today known as the Carthusians, the finest of the Spanish horses. In order to conserve the rare horses for breeding, the government of Spain placed an embargo on their export. For more than 100 years, the Andalusian was virtually unseen by the rest of the world. Then in the 1960's the export ban was lifted.

Now the popularity of the Andalusian horse is once again on the rise. Horsemen are rediscovering the traits that made the Andalusian the most sought-after horse in the world; the strength, agility, beauty, pride and docility bred for centuries into the Spanish horse. The Spanish stallions are unique because they are fiery and tractable. His strength and boldness [look at them in the bullfights 'playing' agaisnt raging charging bulls] make him a very good hunter and jumper. His agility and endurance make him ideal for trial riding cross-country. Generally, the Andalusian is a horse for all seasons and for all sports."
http://www.rozylowicz.com/retirement...ipizzaner.html

Generally speaking a good bunch of the currently existing horse breeds cannot be related with much certainty to ancient breeds. So speculation based on them about the qualities of the horses that used to live on the areas where the modern breeds are mostly found might be of limited use and treated with caution. It seems better to rely to the extent possible on the testimonies of "experts" of the time (or as close as possible). Those are often found in places like hunting manuals (a whole lot of those were written, and a number has survived). Authors of hunting manuals often show good sense and stay away from "the best horse is" claims. Instead, they tend to provide sensible advice along the lines of "because of these particular traits, horses from place X are good for job Y". Can be quite interesting and useful. Of course, sometimes you may have to dig through pages and pages of dietary recomendations for hounds to find the good stuff.

All that said, I'll go partisan ~:) Saying this might cost me my passport and my sister, who owns an Andalusian (or PRE, as they are officially known here in Spain), won't talk to me again if she ever finds out... but as everyone should know the name of THE horse is: Akhal Tekke. ~;)

A little bit more on the spanish horses:

Ther is a special group in the spanish army that is in charge of the conservation and purification of the Carthusian breed. They have been dedicated to this exclusively since 1939.

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Originally Posted by Angadil

Generally speaking a good bunch of the currently existing horse breeds cannot be related with much certainty to ancient breeds. So speculation based on them about the qualities of the horses that used to live on the areas where the modern breeds are mostly found might be of limited use and treated with caution. It seems better to rely to the extent possible on the testimonies of "experts" of the time (or as close as possible).

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Sure. I think I've mentioned both greek and roman works clearly praised the qualities of the iberian horses:

"Many ancient peoples knew of the horse of the Iberians and praised them in writings, drawings and sculpture. The Greeks and Romans many times refer to the Iberian Celts as superb horsemen and their horses as exceptional.

Xenophon, considered by most as the founder of classical equitation, wrote of the Iberian horses that they had the ability to gather the hind legs under the fore, falling back on their hocks and raising the forehand, so that the belly can be seen from the front. This ability, which we now call collection, was impressive in that it allowed warhorses to be swift and agile and to stop and turn quickly in any direction. The Iberian horses and their riders undoubtedly gave Xenophon his first glimpse of classical riding. Iberian cavalry was one of the most important weapons of generals from Hannibal to Julius Caesar. The Iberian horse both shaped the way mounted warfare was conducted and was shaped by it. Its speed, agility and courage were unequaled and lent themselves to the mastery of mounted fighting. The Romans were so impressed by the Iberian Celts that after meeting them in battle they adopted both their weapons and fighting style and set up remount breeding stations for their legions in Baetica (modern Andalucia) to take advantage of the fine horses to be found there. There is also mention of mares brought from the Tagus valley region (Portugal) who were described by Pliny the Elder, a Roman cavalry officer and writer, as “fine, docile and impregnated by the west wind, (which) brought forth offspring of surprising fleetness.”
http://www.ialha.org/new/about_breed/andahistory1.php


"Spanish horses were regarded to be the best in the world: even in 400 BC they were praised by Aristoteles and, subsequently, by other historians such as Pliny the Elder, Virgil and Columela. "
http://www.rmcr.org/eax2.htm


During the moors invasion of Iberia around 700AD:

"we have the written account of, Tarif Aben Taric, a Moorish chronicler of the time who recorded that the Moors found the Iberian horses to be bigger and better than their own as well as more numerous. He and other contemporary scribes (notably: Ben Adhary, Al Makkari, El Doby, El Silerense) wrote that the Moors requisitioned or captured Andalusian horses and used them in their ensuing battles converting their infantry into cavalry. This would seem to indicate that no great numbers of horses were brought from North Africa and that the Moors found the Andalusian horses to be worth possessing and may have taken them back to their homelands."
http://www.doublebridlefarm.com/breedhistory.htm
(great site with great pics, including ancient ones)



And here are some more, but not so ancient, testimonies:

"«As you know, of all the horses in the world, whatever their place of origin, climate or province, Spanish horses are the most expert; and they are thus to a point beyond imagination. This does not make them the easiest to train, because they notice everything with too much attention and application, and because they have excellent memories and prepare and anticipate their judgement, even before knowing the wishes of the rider. In view of all of this they need guiding with great skill and according to genuine principles, and not as a matter of routine. But if one knows how to choose a good Pure Spanish Horse, I vouch that it will be the noblest in the world and that from the tip of its ears to the tip of its hoofs there is none to match its cut. It has great vigour and energy but is very docile; it walks proudly and has a style of trot that is the most beautiful in the world. It is arrogant when galloping, is faster than any other race horse, and is much more noble and friendlier than them too; in short, on a day of triumph it is the best type of horse for a great monarch to display his glory to his people, or on a day of battle to lead his army …I therefore claim that Spanish horses are the best in the world. Spanish horses are good for everything, except for pulling carts.»

Duque of Newcastle

«Experience has clearly demonstrated that Spanish horses are undoubtedly the best in the world for dressage purposes, not only because of their figure, which is willing, vigorous and so docile that they are capable of understanding and executing to perfection anything that with skill and patience they are taught ...; in a word, nature appears to have bred them specifically for dressage; and indeed, they have no equal in terms of bravery, fire and magnanimity.»

Baronn of Eisenberg

«Every author has always given preference to Spanish horses, believing them to be the best for dressage due to their agility, spring and cadence. They believe them to be the best for ostentation due to their elegance, distinction and nobility.»

Francois Robichón de la Guériniére, 1733

http://www.rmcr.org/eax2.htm



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To Sarcasm and his doubt on the Lusitanos' origins:

"In modern times the name Andalusian means different things to different people. To some, it refers only to horses born in the province of Andalucia in Spain; to others it means only horses from Spain. But the International Andalusian and Lusitano Horse Association chooses to use the oldest definition which encompasses the breed that originated in the area including both Spain and Portugal since, at the earliest documented times of the breed's origin and use of that name, neither Spain nor Portugal existed as they are now. At various times the map of the region called Andalucia has changed. Through most of history the land now encompassing Spain and Portugal was a single region divided only by names of sub-regions. Even after the creation of the kingdom of Portugal in the early 12th century, they were often reunited as one under various kings. During the Moorish occupation, an important time in the development of both the Andalusian and its relative the Barb, they called the entire peninsula, Al-Andalus and the excellent warhorse found there, the Andalus Horse.

The horse described by the many peoples who encountered it and were impressed by its unique qualities and courage is the horse which we now call the Andalusian, be it from Spain or Portugal. It was only in recent history that a distinction has been made between the horses born in Spain and those born in Portugal. In 1912 the breeders of Spain chose to call the Andalusians (as they were know to most at that time) which would be entered into their new stud book, Pura Raza Espanola (Pure Bred Spanish). In the late 1960’s the Portuguese breeders decided to create their own stud book. They named the horses they choose to put into their registry, Lusitanos. Many of the horses which they registered were also registered in the Spanish stud book. Only since these recent events has the Andalusian horse been divided into separate breeds by Spain and Portugal. So new were these names and the division of the breed that many breeders were still calling their horses Andalusians well into the last decade. "
http://www.doublebridlefarm.com/breedhistory.htm
(again, this last is very complete site with great pics, including ancient ones)

Basically, Sarcasm, and according to this, they were one and the same till very recently though possibly with some minor comprehensible variations by now. Hope I helped :)

It's true that there is no such thing as a "bad horse," and I'm not really laughing at the Gallic horses, I'm laughing at the lack of care taken in breeding them. Throuought most of Hannibals records, he has tried to reduce his use of Gauls all together, obviously seeing the advantages of Iberian and African mounts over the Gallic ones. Besides, most Gauls lacked the training and devotion to cavalry tactics that the Iberians and Africans had.
I must agree though, Iberian horses are one of the best balance between size, strength, speed, and endurance. Other horses of similar build came from places such as Northern Mesopotamia, the Iranian plateau, and some areas around the Russian steppes. Thus the superior cavalry of the peoples who lived there, such as the Persians, Assyrians, Alans, Huns, Magyrs, Sarmatians and such.