are there any good PC Multiplayer FPS games that respect the sniper?

this is what i really hate about FPS games. in most of them, the devs intentionally make sniper rifles royally suck. just because people who suck at the game would whine about getting owned by snipers if the devs made the sniper rifles be realistic and worth using during actual multiplayer games.

here is a quote from an actual game designer of the Enemy Territory game:

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It's a bit of a cliché that 'Realism' is necessarily no fun, but it certainly wasn't any fun to be owned by rifles at long range when you're packing a pistol-calibre SMG and can't even reach them. Also, we wanted the Covert Ops to be a sneaky killer class, not an outright sniper perforating helmets from the other side of the map. So we messed with the accuracies. As with any compromise, the result is a "least-bad" solution rather than a perfectly consistent everyone's-happy outcome. But them's the breaks, alas. : }

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i find this disturbing attitude to be prevalent pretty much across the whole industry.

i hear in Call of Duty the sniper rifles were originally good but then the devs patched them into crap due to the mass whinings of people who got killed by snipers.

so i ask you PC FPS multiplayer game enthusiasts: are there any good PC Multiplayer FPS games that respect the sniper?

if not, do you think there are any coming out on the horizon?

this "nerf the sniper" mentality is an outrage and needs to be abolished :furious3:

Play Operation Flashpoint! It's old now, but still great. Waiting on the second instalment...

You want Red orchestra the mod for UT2004 Sniper rifles are leathally accurate a extreme range and 1 bullet will kill (if u aim right) - then again having said that rifles ar ethe same as well tho harder to aim at range

one of the best features is the mod actually models the proper curve of the Bullet so the Submachine guns have a far shorter effective range - makes gameplay great fun ~:)

I would love to see a sniper game that incorporated real physics, trajectories, wind and mirage.

And anyone thinking they would be making 1000 shots would be in for a big surprise. ~D :balloon2:

Use the AWP in Counterstrike & CS source, it's ridiculously good. Long range doom on a grand scale.

America's Army... ~;)

Also in Far Cry MP snipers are pretty deadly, I hear.

I agree that Operation Flashpoint is the closest thing you are going to get to a realistic sniper enviroment. The weapons are realistic, and the physics cant be beat

The Day of Defeat mod for Half Life allows for devastating sniping. You do need close support though as most maps permit multiple approaches to a particular position and sniping is a very myopic enterprise.

When an enemy gets in a good spot someone on your own team needs to re-equip as a sniper and take him out when you can’t get close enough by other means.

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i hear in Call of Duty the sniper rifles were originally good but then the devs patched them into crap due to the mass whinings of people who got killed by snipers.

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Reminds me of a CoD mp-game me and some friends were having, before we banned it EVERYONE had sniper-rifles and that was only because one guy choosed it (the only one that liked to snipe) and the only way to counter it was to snipe yourself. I'm assuming it was pre-patch.

The problem with FPS and sniping compared to reality is the low numbers of troops. An army with 10%-20% snipers? :dizzy2:

There, a rational rant.
AA got good snipers BTW (when I played it last time).

I'm a aggressive lurker myself (too bad on regular combat, gets to boored lurking at the same place and not accurate enough with one-shoot-reload weapons), with a preference for assult rifles.

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Originally Posted by kekvitirae

I agree that Operation Flashpoint is the closest thing you are going to get to a realistic sniper enviroment. The weapons are realistic, and the physics cant be beat

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Yep! i agree with that. Plus as its a fairly old game you can buy the gold edition dead cheap. I picked it up for about £15 and that was a year ago.

For an old game it still has a large community of players, and some of the mods are cracking. ~:cheers:

At first snipers was completely overpowered in CoD and yes there was lots of complaining. They tuned them down but are still very good and dominate the gameplay way too much IIRC.

If you can run around and in a split second have your scope up and make a headshot from a long distance then I would say snipers are overpowered and unrealistic. And several games are like that.


CBR

thx for the advice, everyone

i might as well check out America's Army since it's free

i'll keep my eyes open for Operation Flashpoint too

how is the voice-acting in America's Army? the single thing i hated the most about Enemy Territory is the fake German accents. they really grate on my nerves and are incredibly obnoxious.

is there any bad voice-acting in America's Army?

Personaly i advize you go and buy a copy of delta force 2,
Its a old game but still has a good following and plenty of online players,

there are lots of sniper only games and i still play delta force 2, id like to see more snipres =) I love following then then stabbing them in the back

Sniping starts getting stupid when snipers are suddenly endowed with the astonishing mobility games allow them in conjunction with the general game balancing mechanic of artificially imposed poor accuracy.
In games snipers can simply throw a scope to their eyeball and sidestep the accuracy problem entirely, and they can do it with split second 'setup time' and usually with instant kill power as well.

Snipers in games should only get complete accuracy when 'set up'. A sniper is supposed to pick a position with a good field of fire covering apparent enemy zones of movement before the battle even starts.

Sniping rifles in games should only gain that pinpoint accuracy once the sniper has settled into a position, an act which should also render him immobile. As such they could maintain a monopoly on dunderheaded retards trying to force through a position they're covering but stopping sniping rifles being the instagibbing, mobile artillery pieces they end up being. Essentially, a guy who has taken a sniping rifle should be utterly screwed as soon as he realises he's been caught moving by a really angry enemy who is now spraying lead at you from an assault rifle.

Then we can start complaining about how games don't properly convey the advantages of SMGs in close quarters, so they instead end up being a poor mans assault rifle as opposed to being vastly easier to handle when fighting inside a building.

i agree with you Khorak. i have no problem with snipers needing a setup time and having limited mobility

however, there is a big problem with making snipers unrealistically inaccurate and nerfing their damage output like most of the games i've played so far do.

yesterday i was TKing some guys with the sniper rifle in Enemy Territory just to test out it's power. at point blank range, it takes two headshots from a sniper rifle in that game just to kill someone. and when scoped, the rifle does even less damage than that! that's just wrong.

Someone already mentioned this, but cs source is dominated by awp (one shot kill sniper rifle) at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Khorak

Sniping rifles in games should only gain that pinpoint accuracy once the sniper has settled into a position, an act which should also render him immobile. As such they could maintain a monopoly on dunderheaded retards trying to force through a position they're covering but stopping sniping rifles being the instagibbing, mobile artillery pieces they end up being. Essentially, a guy who has taken a sniping rifle should be utterly screwed as soon as he realises he's been caught moving by a really angry enemy who is now spraying lead at you from an assault rifle.

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You just described sniping in Operation Flashpoint in its entirety. Using an M21 or a Druganov is a excellent option for taking out enemies at long range, but the fact the only real way you can get a kill is to calculate trajectory (to date, I have yet to see any other FPS where the bullet is effected by gravity in such a realistic way), stay prone, wait for awhile while you regain your breath if you just ran from position to position (your aim gets shoddy if you are tired), and you hit center mass or get a lucky headshot.

Just like in real life, you damn well better have infantry or armor support to back you up, because once they know there is a sniper around, you are screwed. And if you see mortar fire around you, you can kiss your life goodbye because they have you zeroed in.

Shooting on the run? Bunny hopping? Dont make me laugh. You cant even do that with an M16A2 much less an M21.

Essentially, the realism was what got me so attracted to OPF in the first place.

You may like Raven shield multiplay. The sniper rifle is the hardest rifle to use, you really have to be a good to effectively use it, but when you do you are a force to be reckoned with. Don't expect to get a lot of kills, but your team will love you for 'molding' the battlefield by limiting movement of the other team.

i've been playing America's Army for the past couple of days now

the sniping in that is ok but i'm disappointed that you can't zoom the scope to different levels of magnification in that game - that sucks.

i don't like that to be a sniper in that game, you first have to put up with countless hours of not being a sniper because the sniper slots on your team will always fill-up instantly. and even after all those hours, you still don't get any guarantee that you'll get the sniper slot. that peeves me off a lot. what about people who only want to be a sniper exclusively? they get totally screwed by this game.

i also ran into a lot of very rude jerks in this game too. after they've all gotten themselves killed, they vote to kick me off the server unless i go rushing into the 6 enemies who are still alive vs. just me and commit suicide. i should not have to commit suicide just because my team mates were stupid/unfortunate enough to all die before me. :furious3: those illegitimate kick votes really tick me off.

i should clarify my sniper needs a bit more: i don't want a game where playing a sniper means you have to struggle with the controls as it seems like your man is having a very severe seizure or cardiac arrest or something every time he looks through the scope. i want a scope that can be made to be relatively steady (ie: America's Army does this when you crouch or prone and/or deploy the rifle's bipod).

to summarize: i want a game in which i will be able to camp and snipe all day and all night long until my heart's content without having to waste my time playing other non-sniper classes.

and i also want a game in which the sniper rifle scope does not bob up and down profusely no matter what.

having said all that, do you guys still think i would possibly enjoy Operation Flashpoint's sniping?

OP:F has in general very realistic weapons, including sniper rifles. Sight distance is ~1200m IIRC, so plenty of opportunities to snipe at realistic ranges.

But, I don't know about the multiplayer community of OPF these days. Others have said that there is still a substantial following... sounds good. When I played it a few years ago, it was certainly not hassle-free with all the patches, additions and mods floating around.

BTW, isn't Flashpoint 2 due soon?

Far Cry has also a long sight distance (1000m) and large open areas, and I've read a lot of comments about powerful sniping in the game. Maybe you could check some FC sites or forums if that's still the case. In singleplayer, the sniper rifle is certainly a powerful weapon in FC - the scope is zoomable and quite steady in the prone position, less so when crouching or standing. I haven't played FC multi, so can't comment on that.

Sniper rifles in Day of Defeat are realistically powerful, but the maps are a bit constricting. And that was a couple of years ago, dunno what the situation is now.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

having said all that, do you guys still think i would possibly enjoy Operation Flashpoint's sniping?

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Absolutely. Try the demo if you are interested.
http://www.codemasters.com/downloads/?downloadid=477
Unfortunately, I think the SP demo is the Ambush mission, where you just have a vanilla M16A2. Try looking for squad mates who have an M21 and "relieve" them of it by force.
Personally, I'm a fan of the G36 or Steyr Aug in the Resistance expansion pack. Now there's some good sniping without worrying about running out of ammo. Unfortunately, the sight range is not up to sniping standards.

And OPF2 should be out sometime Spring of 2006.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

i've been playing America's Army for the past couple of days now

the sniping in that is ok but i'm disappointed that you can't zoom the scope to different levels of magnification in that game - that sucks.

i don't like that to be a sniper in that game, you first have to put up with countless hours of not being a sniper because the sniper slots on your team will always fill-up instantly. and even after all those hours, you still don't get any guarantee that you'll get the sniper slot. that peeves me off a lot. what about people who only want to be a sniper exclusively? they get totally screwed by this game.

i also ran into a lot of very rude jerks in this game too. after they've all gotten themselves killed, they vote to kick me off the server unless i go rushing into the 6 enemies who are still alive vs. just me and commit suicide. i should not have to commit suicide just because my team mates were stupid/unfortunate enough to all die before me. :furious3: those illegitimate kick votes really tick me off.

i should clarify my sniper needs a bit more: i don't want a game where playing a sniper means you have to struggle with the controls as it seems like your man is having a very severe seizure or cardiac arrest or something every time he looks through the scope. i want a scope that can be made to be relatively steady (ie: America's Army does this when you crouch or prone and/or deploy the rifle's bipod).

to summarize: i want a game in which i will be able to camp and snipe all day and all night long until my heart's content without having to waste my time playing other non-sniper classes.

and i also want a game in which the sniper rifle scope does not bob up and down profusely no matter what.

having said all that, do you guys still think i would possibly enjoy Operation Flashpoint's sniping?

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Why don't they listen??? Raven shield my friend. It also has a very pleasant community for a shooter, it has this etiquette thing, it is very rare that you encounter a jerk.

after playing a few more days worth of America's Army i have encountered the most annoying thing ever put into a mulitplayer game

the game chooses your team for you against your will. but even worse than that,the game will often switch your team in the middle of a set! i really hate that crap! argh! just when i'm enjoying playing on a certain team that i've won 4 rounds with, it switches me to the losing team against my will in round 5! that is so aggravating! and it doesn't even let me keep my role either. ie: if i was playing as USA Special Forces, then it switches me to a Muslim with crappy weapons!

are the other games like that too? ie: Operation Flashpoint and Raven Shield? i really can't stand having the game automatically force me onto teams or roles which i did not choose.

i need to always be able to choose my team and role.

I dont particularly play OPF multiplayer, but I doubt it will switch sides for you automatically. It would suck if you were one minute kicking butt in an AH-64 Apache and the next you were forced to use a crappy Mi17 all because the game decided to balance things out. I have never heard of any such thing in multiplayer OPF, so try your luck

ah, my first love in FPS games, sniping! regretably, i've found no game that does sniping correctly, even operation flashpoint. and since no one's mentioned this yet, the biggest thing i find wrong with sniper roles is not the targetting, or trajectories or realism of the weapon or shooter, it's the terrain and camoflage, or rather, the lack thereof. one of the first things you learn in sniper school has nothing to do with shooting itself. you learn the art of hiding! and that means camoflage and finding decent cover.

now, current 3d games doing polygon rendering do make this a bit of a problem. so, i can forgive a certain amount of this, but i've yet to see a game that does almost any sort of camoflage for the player himself. now granted, i havent played them all. in fact, whereas i've downloaded america's army, i never installed it, so, maybe someone has done it. but so far, i've seen very little done along these lines. the biggest problem for a sniper is not shooting; it's being found out. in opf i would snipe and snipe well, but the enemy ai was WAY too intelligent about finding me for the most part. decent cover was also very hard to come by. sure, you could find a bush to hide under, but because of the mechanics of modern computer graphics, this really doesnt work that well and you are rarely truly, 'covered up'. in enemy territory it's even worse.

also, in enemy territory, there is one dedicated sniper server i play on. it's the only public server i know that does this. everyone is a sniper. you cant roll up any other classes. the two enemies are divided by a large gorge with only one way to cross to the other side. thus, if you want to play an infiltrator covert ops guy, your chances of making it across that gorge (tightrope walking on a power wire) are pretty remote, being that everyone watches that wire. but the real problem is cover. it's fairly easy to spot anyone, especially since you're also looking through a zoomable scope (normally. you can use a sten or the other louder rifle too). but noone has camoflage of any sort and in fact, some of the uniforms even somewhat highlight you on the map.

and yes, i'd love to play a true sniper game with true physics. anyone that's ever fired a high powered rifle knows about trajectories, range, wind and heartbeats. even weather can play a part in aiming. but you're also going to have to correct 3d graphics to get a good game.

i also agree with the comment someone made about support and with the statement about numbers of troops and ratios. while it's true a sniper can effectively render a decent sized group somewhat immobile, it's also true that numbers can easily overwhelm a lone sniper. games currently dont allow for that much, with the best MP games going up to about 64 players in the FPS category. thus, it's somewhat difficult with map sizes and numbers of players and so on, to play as a sniper in most games. add in unrealistic tweaks done by devs and the sniper class is often relegated to obscurity. you also have to factor in such things as range of vision. games made with the quake type editors tend to purposely limit map ranges due to frame rate considerations. the longer your line of sight, the harder for the comptuter and vid card to keep up. so, you tend to see a lot of maps done with 'fog' or 'haze' to limit line of sight.

games and gaming have come a long way, but it's a far cry from reality yet. but, it keeps advancing. so, maybe one of these days....

K.

I hear that Joint Operations has good sniping. They have lots of plants and ghillie suits:

http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/...040704_026.jpg
The guy with the sniper rifle is on a different team than the guys with the AKs. Some good camo there.

Crazed Rabbit

Id try the delta force seriese lol,
I prefer df2 and i dont like the newer ones cos the players online have no honour lol.
Or atlest they dont play by the same unspoken rules that delta force 2 players play by.

Sniping in df2 is fine with recoil barrel flash and sound all working against you,
the scope magnyfies as would be expected and you haft to calibrate sight,

same thing in df3 but as i said I dont like the players there :)

and you will probably say gfx suck,
But who really cares, got to be prety vain to only play crap but nice looking games,
leaveing behind the good games just to play nice looking 1s that suck instead

oh and delta force 3 has no grass where df2 has difrent length grass wic is better for snipers.
so df2 is beter :)

Joint Operations is good. One time I was walking in bushes and ran into a sniper who was prone. At first a thought it was a rock or something then it moved.

Snipers can be very deadly

Anyone got any opinions of snipers in Ghost Recon (the original)? I've mainly played Single Player, where first time through I relied almost entirely on the sniper due to their greater zoom. Later on, I've started to appreciate the limitations of their longer time to aim and reload compared to assault rifles - important when fighting groups of opponents. Snipers seems pretty authentic and well-balanced in the game.

Sniper rifles are pretty useless in the other "realistic" shooter I've enjoyed - Vietcong. Their restricted vision and slow ROF just does not suit the chaotic, close range nature of the single player game.

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Originally Posted by Kraellin

the harder for the comptuter and vid card to keep up. so, you tend to see a lot of maps done with 'fog' or 'haze' to limit line of sight.

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this is another thing that greatly annoys me about America's Army. there is a constant fog and haze on every single outdoors map, and it makes proper sniping impossible. you can't tell if you're taking potshots at your own team or not. and if you do shoot your own team, you get dinged really badly :furious3:

i have found this makes it even more impossible to find cover or camoflauge as a sniper in that game because you have to constantly be moving forward just to get a better view of who you're shooting at due to the fog. and most of the time as you're moving forward, the enemy will massacre you.