Absolute Truth and the Nature of Reality

I've spawned this thread to continue a thought train that began in another. The way some discussions tend to branch off into ancillary subjects seems to annoy a number of folks here (though it is a natural tendency in most casual conversations in which I've participated ...). If this were an academic forum I could understand better the annoyance of threads going off-topic but ... anyway, in the interests of harmony:

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KhukriKhan - Memory. The tool we use to percieve the very, very, very recent past (sometimes known as 'the here and now'). When it is gone - as in an Alzheimer's sufferer - we may have achieved oneness with reality, but we've lost the ability to know it, as we no longer have that artificial construct of reality to use to guide us through the changes perceived since that construct was decided on.

I remember having a Carlos Casteneda moment in my 20's when it dawned on me that each individual human makes up their reality (or construct of it) as they go along; no one more accurate than another, all of them guesses.

Nowadays, it just makes me smile.

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Sjakihata - When each individual creates his/her own reality, does it then not render discussion useless? Instead of discussion it should be dialogue - so we can exchange certain information, and if the targeted individual does not accept / believe we should not judge them.

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Toga - Well, my take is, each individual has his or her own perception of reality, but there is an absolute reality that stands apart despite how anyone/anything chooses to perceive it. I see "enlightenment" as the ability to accurately and consistently perceive this absolute reality and understand it.

I have always enjoyed what you describe as dialogue, as opposed to what typically goes on in the Backroom. So many seem to need to prove themselves right, prove others wrong, convince others to adopt their point of view. It gets tedious.

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Sjakihata - Toga, you do believe in an absolute truth. Do you also think then, that individuals exposed to the truth will be able to reckognize it, if not it would be frightning, no?

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Toga - Hmm ... have to think about that before I respond. I need to run some errands anyway so I'll get back to you a bit later.

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Byzantine Prince - In my personal opinion we are actually just anybody but we take roles because of our animal sides. We don't need to have a style or anything. All we need is to exist. The mind is blank until you add a bunch a crap in it. If you clear yourself then you'll be free. Only logic should exist. Logic solves itself. Once you look at the outside world forget everything you ever knew, just use logic and "see" the future by yourself.

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Toga - (in response to Sjakihata's direct questions): I think we are exposed to Truth all the time. I think it exists in the grass beneath our feet, in the sky above, in the laughter of children waiting at the bus stop, in the flow of traffic through the city. It lies at the Heart of you, and me. Will we be able to recognize it? Given what I just put forward, obviously not. I don't yet--I just "sense" ... something--something profound and real. I hope that, someday, I will "recognize" it. I don't think it's possible with just the brain-mind. I think the nature of Truth is beyond the mere physical or mental; I think it's "spiritual," for the lack of a better term. I think you have a sense of what I mean when I say this.

Would it be frightening to recognize it? I don't know, but I don't think I would be frightened. I'm not so sure that "recognize" is the term I would use. "Realize," perhaps. Words are so inadequate when considering such things. It is through my meager studies of the writings of the great prophets and masters that I have come to believe in Truth. Most have described their enlightment with great Joy, not fear. These were truly great human beings in my eyes, and I have come to trust in what they have shared. It's not through logic or reasoning that I've chosen to believe what they have put forward, nor is it faith. It is something else. Again, words are so inadequate ... .

Here is a link to "The Art of Peace," written by Ueshiba Morihei, "O'Sensei," founder of Aikido. To those who read it with an emphasis on logic and reasoning it will seem like poppycock, as does most "spiritual" work. But if one reads with an open Mind, and ponders it over time, perhaps it will resonate as it has for me. I have also found other Zen teachings and Sufi works on this subject to be quite astounding (and perplexing). They can be found all over the 'net.

http://www.heaven-earth.com/artofpeace.htm

When one is caught up in the day-today life of humanity, it becomes very hard to consider such things. Have you spent more than two weeks straight in the wilderness? If so, have you noticed the change in yourself and how you "view" things? Do you "feel" differently? When you return to the "real" world, are you invigorated (and at the same time, dismayed?)? I like to take works like these with me on treks, and ponder them at length. I like to then ponder nothing, and just exist in the warmth of the sun, mesmerized by the ripples in the lake, caressed by the winds, listening to the whispers of the pines. It is then that I feel closest to Truth.

That you would ask, honors me. In doing so you've reminded me that I would do well to focus more on important things and spend less time with trifles. That will probably last a day or two :embarassed:, but nevertheless, thanks. I have been behaving like an ass in some circles here. Gah ... but I am just a silly human, so I guess I should cut myself some slack.

I owe someone an apology in the Backroom. See ya 'round.

I spend most of my time alone in the house. I know what you mean, if i had worked during all this time I wouldn't have realized anything baout the reality of the world. Work get's your mind very limited. Sitting by yourself for hours on end is really enlightening. You see that the world is far more complex and you get to even see yourself in a different light. It makes you really selfconcious and that's really odd.

After I'm done my "gap" year though it's back to school and all the knowledge that I aquired will probably be forgotten since I didn't write anything down. I do however feel I gained a lot.

Toga Im sorry for my late reply.

I know what you say, when you say spirituality and I indeed think that our view of somethings are not that different, indeed very similar, or so it seems.

I think you misunderstood me, when I said frightning. What I meant was this: If you are able to see/realize the truth it is jolly good. But if humans exposed to the truth do not see or realize it, then I say, it would be frightning, as how are we then to see it?


And I reckognize your lines about nature vs. the city. In fact, from my newest trip to Nepal - when I returned back I felt so fill and yet in a way very empty to be exposed to the daily trivals and the weekly cycle. At any rate, in that moment in which I lived in Nepal I felt alive, Im not sure whether I was close to the truth - but I had a good time and I thought of things which I normally do not ponder.

About spiritualism. Since Im young I have not fully settled whether I belive the truth is something to be achieved through meditation and the more spiritual endeavours, this I believe less - I resort more to logic and the scientific approach, especially logic. However, I do know that this might be a symptom of illness of my generation - this is why I state that I do not yet know at path truth is to be found. At any rate, perhaps the path is not so important, like the old saying: all paths lead to the top of the mountain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sjakihata

Toga Im sorry for my late reply.

I know what you say, when you say spirituality and I indeed think that our view of somethings are not that different, indeed very similar, or so it seems.

I think you misunderstood me, when I said frightning. What I meant was this: If you are able to see/realize the truth it is jolly good. But if humans exposed to the truth do not see or realize it, then I say, it would be frightning, as how are we then to see it?


And I reckognize your lines about nature vs. the city. In fact, from my newest trip to Nepal - when I returned back I felt so fill and yet in a way very empty to be exposed to the daily trivals and the weekly cycle. At any rate, in that moment in which I lived in Nepal I felt alive, Im not sure whether I was close to the truth - but I had a good time and I thought of things which I normally do not ponder.

About spiritualism. Since Im young I have not fully settled whether I belive the truth is something to be achieved through meditation and the more spiritual endeavours, this I believe less - I resort more to logic and the scientific approach, especially logic. However, I do know that this might be a symptom of illness of my generation - this is why I state that I do not yet know at path truth is to be found. At any rate, perhaps the path is not so important, like the old saying: all paths lead to the top of the mountain.

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I find it sad, not frightening. And not sad in a condescending way. But perhaps questing for it in our own way is the real purpose of why we are here. I believe so. How are we to see it? Well, at this point I have no idea, but what I have surmised from my studies is that, to realize it, we have to use different "methods" that those to which we are accustomed, hence my belief that eyes and brain and logic/reasoning are not the Way, at least, in and of themselves.

Was it not the great prophet, Spock of Vulcan, who said it is "one step beyond logic?" ~:)

The sufi refer to "veils" that cloud our minds to Truth, that began forming the instant we were born into this material world. Buddhists speak of attachments, and desires. Both suggest that a key element in enabling one to perceive Truth is to overcome these, to free ourselves from the "chains" they represent. I have found this to be exceptionally difficult.

When I spoke of feeling closer to Truth after spending an extended period of time in the wilderness alone, it is because the grip of my attachments and desires (money, power, success, status--all the worldly things that seem so important at times) faded somewhat as I immersed myself in the natural world. It changes my perspective drastically (but only when I spend a long time away; shedding the detritus built up over years and years is no small thing). I have been trekking since age 8, and it is only recently that I realized, for myself, why I felt so good after spending an extended amount of time up in my favorite places.

Each of us has our own path to follow up "the mountain." There is no one way, I think. But there is, I believe, one destination. O'Sensei said that the Way itself is the key. He was a great man, and I have found nothing in his teachings to dispute. Because he was a warrior, his description of the Way helped me to fit the warrior in me into this big picture. The others did not put the warrior way into a perspective that fit, for me. In another thread the need to find a healthy way to channel "violence" was mentioned. This is the Way that speaks to me fiercely.

I think you are right in that the path is not so important. That you are on your Way is all that matters. I think it would be good never to become "fully settled," for this suggests a fixed attachment, and closes the door to insight that further experience and thoughtfulness can bring. Instead, I think it's best to just keep walking and observing, and pondering, and then ... no-thing. Perhaps it will eventually bring you to what you seek. This is my hope, for all of us who are on our Way.

Perplexing though ... a recent fellow who seemed exceptionally wise in these matters suggested that I stop seeking. I am still trying to wrap my no-brain around that :dizzy2:.

Thank you for the opportunity talk about this. It is a subject very dear to me. :bow:

Actually that "fellow of yours" is wise. Did you ever read Herman Hesse's Siddhartha? If not I think you would find it somewhat interesting - and you would understand his advice better. For people who seek fiercly and at times desperately are often if not always blinded by their search. Sometimes you should just live and let come - however, that book is touching this subject deeply and I recommend it strongly. Also Hesse's Der Steppenwolf (The Steppewolf) is a good book, which I can only recommend.

Thanks for the recommendation, I have not read them. I will look for them. :bow: