New idea! Orders...

Random thought just came into my head - what if units required a certain amount of time between orders - say, based on discipline and/or distance from the general unit?

So, for instance, a barbarian army would be somewhat cumbersome, and difficult to co-ordinate, but a drilled Roman army would be able to execute more precise manouevres...

Also, perhaps make it so that the number of orders given also be related to the general's command level, as well as certain traits or whatever. A rookie general's not going to be as good at issuing orders as a veteran. Nor is a rabble likely to have the same sort of command infrastructure as a professional army.

Just a thought.

No, no, no, no, no!!! This would make the game even more unbalanced for the barbarian factions!!

That's a great idea. It would add a whole new dimension to the game. They should add that to the expansion, it shouldn't be too hard.

I thought it was already present in the game. There is a pause between orders and execution that appears to be related to experience/command. I always assumed there was a radius of control somewhere in there too.

I saw that once in an old microprose game Fields of Glory. The game cast you as an army commander commander at Waterloo and other 100 days battles.

Your corp and division commanders had different degrees of recklessness so youd give your orders and it was always a gamble whether they would be followed or not.

It was a frustrating mechanic at times, most notably once when at waterloo uxbridges corp refused to withdraw after routing a number of french columns. Instead they gloriously charged the rest of the french army........ and died. Horribly. Art imitates life or what :)

It was a nice additioon to the game, but might not work in TW battles as there is only one commander. Perhaps you could introduce a more developed chain of command with captains/generals commanding each wing of the army?

It's a nice idea, but I bet it'd get really annoying. ~;) ~D

I think

http://www.slitherine.co.uk/LegionArena/ArenaIndex.htm

is supposed to have something like that.

I would probably go nutz if there was even more chaos added to the battles!

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Originally Posted by Mikeus Caesar

No, no, no, no, no!!! This would make the game even more unbalanced for the barbarian factions!!

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Yes, it would, but that was the way of the world in the time in which the game is set. It would make the game that much more realistic. Barbarian hordes had a much less sophisticated command hierarchy than civilized armies, especially the Romans. Therefore, civilized command and control is going to be better. Not that the barbarians didn't enjoy successes, and not that they didn't produce some great generals. I am referring to generalities. I think it's a great idea to adapt this concept into the game, or, if it is already present, to make it more pronounced.

i don't klnow if i would like it

Add another factor that you can only see where your general is, and suddenly your general becomes far more important than just a heavy cav. unit.

Ie. you may have skirmishers out the front and suddenly they come under fire. But you don't have a clue from what. Are they under fire from other skirmishers, archers, ballistae, what? So you have to make a choice as to how you are going to get information.

You know this could be a toggle like the camera on general only, each general has a Zone of control, as units stray past this they can have a tendancy to chase routing armies, run back to the zoc, or stand around picking their collective noses. Other than morale effects, I hadnt really noticed any difference to better generals, maybe a discipline type effect could be added. After all its easy to buy a unit of merceny and throw them away as cannon fodder here, but with a poor general they actually refuse to charge than line of pikes, it would add some spice.

I am not even sure how large scale battles were handled in this time period, were there bugles? flags? loud mouthed sargeants? But I think orders is a nice idea.

I was even thinking to go beyond this, and have messengers for ungoverned cities, so that nothing could be built unless the messenger got thru, or that un generalled units could be given a order, and until another general sent a messenger to them they would follow it out and not be able to be diverted. Even towns with governors would do their own thing depending on the type of governor there unless the heir or leader gives them a different directive. Sure we can turn on auto manage and sort of do the same thing, but if orders were all carried out by messengers, maybe sending assasns or a unit along a road to waylay one could cause some havoc, or maybe even not be able to deliver the message that your city is about to be sacked!

To be honest with diplomats, spys and whatnot, most players have ample time to see a enemy force approaching, it would make a little difference to have your 2 unit milita city now facing a full army that came out of nowhere.


I am sorry for diverting your idea somewhat but I got caught up too much one thing and it sorta branched into the other..:)

This would add just another tactical feature the AI would be unable to cope with. AI is helpless in battles even without it.

Sounds like a good idea at first but there are too many issues with it:
1. How will the AI cope?
2. How are the barbarians affected?
3. Are the battles big enough to require such macro-organisation between the commanders and his units?
4. How annoying will this be for the player?
5. How would units meant to act cohesively (i.e. the phanlanx) act if some parts of the line refuses to move?

I think it a good idea, but for the others CA should allow a spot in the options to mark wether or not to use it.

I feel its a grand idea.
You have a orderly Roman army. The other barbarians, a horde. Order them into line, and they respond with rapid precision. The Barbarians are still shifting units around. When the barbarians attack, your troops repsond. You outflank the barbarians. THey slowly turn. Thundering in, the cavalry plow ahead, ripping the barbarians to shred, with thier backs turned to you.

It's not a bad idea, but can we do it or are we just waiting for CA to do something nice for us?

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Originally Posted by Count Belisarius

Yes, it would, but that was the way of the world in the time in which the game is set. It would make the game that much more realistic. Barbarian hordes had a much less sophisticated command hierarchy than civilized armies, especially the Romans. Therefore, civilized command and control is going to be better. Not that the barbarians didn't enjoy successes, and not that they didn't produce some great generals. I am referring to generalities. I think it's a great idea to adapt this concept into the game, or, if it is already present, to make it more pronounced.

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The barbarian armies were probably not as unsophisticated as some suggest. The "barbarians" used a war trumpet called the carnyx for issuing commands. They also tended to have standards. And they most certainly had tribal leaders and were fighting beside their relations and closely associated tribesmen. These weren't just large mobs. They formed up rather well at Telamon facing both ways to face two armies simultaneously--just the sort of situation in which many armies would instead falter, flee, or melt away. That's not a horde in action. Unfortunately the Celts/Gauls were not preserving their history in written form at the time, so we are forced to rely on cultures that did for our information about them.

And horse archer armies and light skirmisher types (some Iberians, Numidians, etc) might paradoxically prove to have some advantage since they tended to act as independent entities that would strike and withdraw without needing detailed control. It was a different fighting style. Where they would lack would be in full force coordination once their initial group orders were given.

Hate to tell ya this, but this "superior Romans" myth is just that. The Romans had just as many screw-up generals as the barbarians did. The generals often would even blatantly refuse to help other armies that were commanded by a rival family, or due to political reasons of the day. This sometimes even resulted in the annihilation of tens of thousands of Roman troops.

The Romans weren't always so superior to everyone else, and just because their opponents were called barbarians did not necessarily make them morons.

Nevertheless, discipline is modeled in RTW in units that will 'attack without orders' but from my experience this only happens when they're commanded by the AI.

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Originally Posted by Somebody Else

Random thought just came into my head - what if units required a certain amount of time between orders - say, based on discipline and/or distance from the general unit?

So, for instance, a barbarian army would be somewhat cumbersome, and difficult to co-ordinate, but a drilled Roman army would be able to execute more precise manouevres...

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I think it's already in the game. If you look in the export_descr_unit.txt file, you find the following fields listed:

stat_mental The base morale level, followed by discipline and training
; discipline may be normal, low, disciplined or impetuous Impetuous units may charge without orders
; training determines how tidy the unit's formation is

While it doesn't say exactly what the level of training does, my guess is that it's to do with the speed (and neatness) with which units respond to orders. One of the reasons hastati suck, for example, is because their discipline and training are only "normal, trained", while principes are "disciplined, highly trained".

BTW I disagree with your proposal anyway, because in my view units already sod around too much before responding to orders in this game.

This would only work if there was crazy Generals who, if they have an Impetuous trait, are known to just go attacking other armies - especially if there is another trait "Hates Gauls" or what have you.

But in all, it would be frusterating, and you'd need much larger armies to be able to do this. You'd need to have it connected with Loyalty to the General, and it would bring a whole RPG element to it that way as well.