Roundtable (a proposal)

I noted in a thread in the Backroom AdrianII lament the lack of civil/intelligent discourse. He then contrasted this with one thread where the exchange had revolved around the works of C.S. Lewis. He noted how the participants all presented their ideas and impressions in the best possible light. This view was then seconded.

I began thinking. The Backroom is filled with acrimony. This is mostly due to the passion associated with political exchange. The Frontroom has all the allure of asking one their favorite color: again and again. Each has its place. What if a new tavern room were set up. This Roundtable would be a place void of taunt, but full of passionate exchange. The reason is the intellectual capacity of participants would be focused on given literary/intellectual themes that would change over given periods. In simple terms it would be a book club where the participants could have a work chosen and then post impressions etc. This may involve suggesting actual reading and discussion of chapters over time or it may involve comparison of the merits of differnet works or authors etc. Senior Members cannot poll. My guess is this would be popular. I submit the idea to the powers.

If I may, I whole-heartedly second this suggestion.

It does seem that too many threads in the Backroom descend into name calling and hair pulling between three or four members - just look at the recent thread on Christian Oppression for an example of how people WERE discussing things tolerantly and intelligently and then it all went belly up and OT.

Let's have somewhere where intelligent and interactive participation is encouraged and people don't feel too intimidated to post.

I think it should be entirely possible to get a good, intelligent debate going in the Frontroom. As long as it stays civil, why not? Perhaps what we need is to make better use of the Frontroom?

If literary debate is your thing, surely the mead hall is the place to go? Although I do like the idea of having 'set texts' to keep discussion focused.

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Originally Posted by theother

I think it should be entirely possible to get a good, intelligent debate going in the Frontroom. As long as it stays civil, why not? Perhaps what we need is to make better use of the Frontroom?

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Probably because the mundane posts of us ballsy, stoopid street folks annoy the Ivy League intellectual geniuses here. If this proposal were to go forward, they could gather in one place and avoid the sheep, peasants ... and wolves.

By all means, as far as I'm concerned; my buttons will get pushed less frequently, and hence, I won't feel the need to blast them off of their pedestals as often, pissing off the masses. If they haven't learned to appreciate us yet, then they likely never will.

I'm ready, Anti-Togas: blast me with your cries of dissent and "hypocrisy!" Talk to the butt ... (looks for BA smiley ...).

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Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

Probably because the mundane posts of us ballsy, stoopid street folks annoy the Ivy League intellectual geniuses here. If this proposal were to go forward, they could gather in one place and avoid the sheep, peasants ... and wolves.

By all means, as far as I'm concerned; my buttons will get pushed less frequently, and hence, I won't feel the need to blast them off of their pedestals as often, pissing off the masses. If they haven't learned to appreciate us yet, then they likely never will.

I'm ready, Anti-Togas: blast me with your cries of dissent and "hypocrisy!" Talk to the butt ... (looks for BA smiley ...).

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here, here...couldnt have put as eloquently myself..it just seems like super-ego masturbation...imho ~:cool:

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Originally Posted by Pindar

The Frontroom has all the allure of asking one their favorite color: again and again

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The Frontroom is GREAT as it is. People are stimulated differently because people have different interests. For example, this proposed Roundtable, IMPO, has the allure of pseudo-intellectualism, and will be as shallow to me as the Frontroom is shallow to you.

This proposed Roundtable divides the Tavern into - for the lack of a better term - perceived "scales of intelligence". Currently, the Tavern is divided into Light and Heavy topics.

Your characterization of the Frontroom as not smart, the Backroom as smart and rowdy, and the proposed Roundtable as instantly civil and intelligent (smart and unrowdy) has the earmarks of elitism.

Intellect is just a word. If you look at the earth, it is nothing compared to the size of the universe, which is the whole reality of it all. What matters is how each and every person is stimulated. Since every person has a different set of interests, they have different means and ways of getting stimulated. The Tavern already caters to the varying degrees of personal interests of all the members.

Characterizing one set of interest as more important than the other is wrong and ironically, uncivil.

For a book club, I suggest the Mead Hall where we post and critique each other's works & writings.

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Your characterization of the Frontroom as not smart, the Backroom as smart and rowdy, and the proposed Roundtable as instantly civil and intelligent (smart and unrowdy) has the earmarks of elitism.

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He is a conservative...

*Damn, you know those are the kinds of remarks he is talking about!*

Don't worry I will proceed to lash myself a million times for the terrible comments I make and let us hope you never meet people as foul mouthed as I in your day to day exchanges. May you go to your luncheon with your extra special friends Pindar.

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Originally Posted by JAG

He is a conservative...

*Damn, you know those are the kinds of remarks he is talking about!*

Don't worry I will proceed to lash myself a million times for the terrible comments I make and let us hope you never meet people as foul mouthed as I in your day to day exchanges. May you go to your luncheon with your extra special friends Pindar.

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That was actually uncalled for given the nature of the watchtower and the proposal made by Pindar - and is nothing other then a ad hominem statement.

I would like to see this type of discussion remain civil when its just asking about the possiblity - one I do not agree with by the way. We should try it in the front room as a light discussion on topics that are interesting to several. We can even try it in the back room - with a dedicated moderator to delete the attempts at derailing the thread.

Backroom style "discussion" tactics in the Watchtower. Lovely.

Edit: Oh, Redleg beat me to the point...

One rotten apple spoils them all.

Nice idea, but doomed to fail. It resembles somewhat of that Conservative club that has been established in the Backroom; it was supposed to serve as a place for conservatives to discuss issues among themselves without liberals charging in and attacking them all together. Now, who could keep the liberals out, or any other group for that matter, out of any “special” club? We have some share of resident trolls that will charge in, smack anyone with a club and grin with satisfaction.

What stands in the way of intellectual discourse in general are the people unable to remain cool and objective, tolerant and respective towards other people’s opinions and stances. So it’s back to colors and camps again. How annoying.

Oh, and gentlemen, this idea has nothing of “pseudo-intellectual” or “super-ego-masturbation” scent to it; it is a mere wish of one individual to have more productive and more sophisticated discussion. Considering some responses in this thread, I can see exactly what Pindar is missing.

The idea still has merit I believe - however for it to work it will take a dedicated moderator who stays involved in the discussion and will delete posts that are not in line with the discussion to keep it somewhat clean.

Futhermore it would take a concentrated effort by those who wish to partake in the discussion not to be derailed by the trolls and the OT discussion points.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Backroom style "discussion" tactics in the Watchtower. Lovely.

Edit: Oh, Redleg beat me to the point...

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Hell I only spend time in two rooms in the forum - I saw this one and thought the idea had merit - and still do - and since I have calmed down slightly in my rethoric - its not hard to spot the BS when I see it now.

VK hopefully you will join them if this idea takes off. I'll enjoy not having to put up with such blatant, hypocritical arrogance anymore because I'll know where it hangs out and can avoid it.

It has everything to do with “pseudo-intellectual,” “super-ego-masturbation.” Perhaps it's a smell to which you are used, and thus no longer recognize. "it is a mere wish of one individual to have more productive and more sophisticated discussion. Considering some responses in this thread, I can see exactly what Pindar is missing."

Listen to yourself ... sounds like you are quite familiar with the nature of super-ego-masturbation to me.

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I see most threads simply as conversations, and in conversations it's natural for subtopics to pop up, and for the discussion to go off on tangents for a while. What's the big deal? I think some folks here are a bit anal-retentive--either that or they have a subconscious desire to control the behavior of others--all this whining about staying on topic, etc. (not in this thread, but in general; I'm not reacting to anyone in particular here). I've also seen people losing arguments resorting to the "off topic" claim in order to bail out of an embarrassing situation for them. All in all, what I'm saying is, it's natural for discussions to shift. I find many of the shifts quite interesting, and in some cases, "thread-savers." This is a casual forum, not an intellectual one. If someone wants an intellectual forum, what are they doing here?? Are they looking to be big fishies in a small pond??

In threads that I've started, where I wanted folks to focus and stay on topic, I stated that in the first post, and policed the thread myself as the inceptor. If someone wants to have a serious discussion in a thread I suggest this method. I haven't encountered anyone yet that has blatantly disrespected my desire to stay on topic in such threads, and a mod can always be called in if someone gets really out of line.

But this is off-topic so ... back to the topic. :dizzy2:

Personally I do not think that we need an additional Tavern-room for intellectual discussions, as I believe the Frontroom and the Backroom are perfectly fine for these.

OTOH I cannot help but be surprised what an uproar Pindar's suggestion caused :dizzy2:

BTW, if you want to see a real "elitist" OT forum, just visit the TWC...

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The Frontroom is more than fit for such a purpose. If you want "heavier" discussions there, why don't you start some? (No f***bomb politics of course!) My "movie review" thread could be rolled down to increase in content for example but few chose to participate.

Oh btw, where is that CSL thread?
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You could really break the forum up even futher into more & more sub-forums but i don't personally think it would make too much difference. People will always have their own opinions/beliefs it's just how they express them that can cause problems!

[sarcasm on]
Here's an idea why don't we all have our own sub-forum where we can discuss and not offend ourselves as much as we like!!
[/sarcasm off] :dizzy2:

On a slight off topic but more serious note how about renewing the New Members only posting in the Entrance hall? That would restrict "New Posters" coming in with highly intelligent "i can see your point but your a d*ck" comments. Man that makes my blood boil, especially when directed at some of the more senior member whom obviously have more of a grip on the subject matter that some.

Man i had no intention of ranting on, perhaps my posts should be restricted?!? ~:confused:

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Originally Posted by *Ringo*

On a slight off topic but more serious note how about renewing the New Members only posting in the Entrance hall? That would restrict "New Posters" coming in with highly intelligent "i can see your point but your a d*ck" comments. Man that makes my blood boil, especially when directed at some of the more senior member whom obviously have more of a grip on the subject matter that some.

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I share your feelings, I share those of Pindar and I share those of Togakure Ojonin. I like a nice, scholarly exhange from time to time and guys like Pindar, Simon Appleton or Hurin Rules never disappoint me. At other times I wanna have fun and I look for people like Templar Knight, Tribesman or Goofball. I like a good bar fight too, in which case Dev Dave is always at hand. If it's that hard to be consistent in my own behaviour, it would be a bit rich for me to expect others to stick to certain rules.

At any rate I wouldn't want a new forum that excludes certain members from participating. Members should be allowed to join and leave a forum or thread at their discretion unless their behaviour is out of order.

Furthermore, the sort of prolonged discussion that Pindar proposes requires quite an attention span. This is the World Wide Web; most surfers are here to hit and run, only a minority is genuinely interested in a topic and very, very few are prepared to commit themselves for any length of time to their fellow surfers. I had to confront this unpleasant fact twice on totally different boards, and I have experienced it again at the .org when I offered to make a sticky for online history resources. Out of all the members who encouraged me, only four or five were willing to spend more than thirty seconds of their time and contribute to the thread.

Finally, if we are going to give it a try, I think the Monastery should be the place for this sort of discussion. Gregoshi is the strong and silent type of mod, he doesn't put his snout into every thread or discussion but he's there when you need him and I'm sure he would guarantee that such threads had the right 'feel' about them. Of course he and TosaInu would have to agree, it's their decision. But if we have their commitment, y'all have mine too. I'll be happy to participate in such threads and leave my Backroom manners at the door.

Personally, I would think the frontroom would suit just fine, it's underappreciated because most people like a good backroom find to unwind, but something like this could certainly increase its appeal again.

But if enough members are willing to participate I have no real 'objections' to the idea of a separate room. Seeing how the monastery is doing these days though, I'm not sure if an 'intellectual discussion room' will find much of an audience .

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Originally Posted by voigtkampf

One rotten apple spoils them all.

Nice idea, but doomed to fail. It resembles somewhat of that Conservative club that has been established in the Backroom; it was supposed to serve as a place for conservatives to discuss issues among themselves without liberals charging in and attacking them all together. Now, who could keep the liberals out, or any other group for that matter, out of any “special” club? We have some share of resident trolls that will charge in, smack anyone with a club and grin with satisfaction.

What stands in the way of intellectual discourse in general are the people unable to remain cool and objective, tolerant and respective towards other people’s opinions and stances. So it’s back to colors and camps again. How annoying.

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As has already been stated, you're going to have to find a ruthless mod if you wanna make it work. It may result in a lot of whining as well...I think Greg got reassigned to the monastary from the EH because of time issues (please correct me if I am wrong.) I doubt he'd want to police such a forum that tightly...

Also, for intellectual discussion, just use the monastary and/or mead hall for whatever is relevant. Yes, the backroom is divided into camps a lot of the time; but isn't the roundtable going to be crewed by the same people to a great extent? So therefore, people are usually going to stay in those camps no?

Just another patron expressing his views ~:grouphug:

How about the thread-starter specifying the parameters of discussion?

i.e.

Thread header: The Terri Schiavo Case (C) (btw, R.I.P)

Rated C = Civil (no cussing, no taunting, no slurs etc.)

Also, I reiterate, the Frontroom is great for its function. ~:)

The best made schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft a-gley


ichi :bow: