Julii / Caesares

Just a quick question (may even have been asked before), but one that I would like to know the answer to all the same. Why is the name of the red Roman faction in Rome: Total War called the Julii? Why is this faction not called the Caesares?

My reasoning behind this question is that the Brutii and Scipii factions are both known by their cognomia i.e Marcus Junius Brutus or Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. Yet the Julii faction seem to be named after the nomen gentile of their most famous member Gaius Julius Caesar.

Any thoughts?

I suspect the only reason is that it sounded much better than Caesares.

No, Julii is the name of his familiy, isn't it?

Yes

In which case, why are the Brutii and Scipii named for their cognomia. The system is inconsistent and I assumed that whatever they did the majority of the time would be correct.

I think I have the answer now. :book:
The name of the family was Julii. Old noble Roman family. They claim to descent from Jullus, the son of the Trojan prince Aneas. Aneas himself was a son of the goodness Venus. When Cesar was born, the Julii were noble but poor with not much political influence.

I think that Al Khalifa means that the Brutii should be called the Junii and the Scipii should be called the Cornelii if the naming system were to be correct. Right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Al Khalifah

In which case, why are the Brutii and Scipii named for their cognomia. The system is inconsistent and I assumed that whatever they did the majority of the time would be correct.

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Very interesting!!

This is what I found:

The male Roman had three names:

praenomina (kind of Christian name)
There were only 19 different available. Some of them were only used by one family. From the 5th son they took the number (Quintus = 5th, Sixtus...)

nomen gentile (this is the name of his father's family)

cognomina (this name is individual, too, due to some properties of the child)
Later, the cognomia stood for the stirps.

Sometimes there were agnomen; Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus (=the winner in Africa)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

Very interesting!!

This is what I found:

The male Roman had three names:

praenomina (kind of Christian name)
There were only 19 different available. Some of them were only used by one family. From the 5th son they took the number (Quintus = 5th, Sixtus...)

nomen gentile (this is the name of his father's family)

cognomina (this name is individual, too, due to some properties of the child)
Later, the cognomia stood for the stirps.

Sometimes there were agnomen; Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus (=the winner in Africa)

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Nice work! Didn't know that about the praenomina. Just giving your child a number sounds nice... ~D

Quote:

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praenomina (kind of Christian name)
There were only 19 different available. Some of them were only used by one family. From the 5th son they took the number (Quintus = 5th, Sixtus...)

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Only 19 available? Not much choice then.. ~D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Al Khalifah

Just a quick question (may even have been asked before), but one that I would like to know the answer to all the same. Why is the name of the red Roman faction in Rome: Total War called the Julii? Why is this faction not called the Caesares?

My reasoning behind this question is that the Brutii and Scipii factions are both known by their cognomia i.e Marcus Junius Brutus or Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. Yet the Julii faction seem to be named after the nomen gentile of their most famous member Gaius Julius Caesar.

Any thoughts?

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Simple, marketing. The names, while not historically correct, are used to drum up an image of Romans that the mob may be familiar with to generate interest. "The name House of Julii", congers up and image of Caesar, even it's laurel leaf banner is mean't to congure Caesar. House of Scipii, if you have a turse knowledge of Roman history congures up Scipio Africanus. Brutii congures up Brutus from the play Julius Caesar.

And they all end in ii ... makes them sound like a family

Quote:

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praenomina (kind of Christian name)
There were only 19 different available. Some of them were only used by one family. From the 5th son they took the number (Quintus = 5th, Sixtus...)

nomen gentile (this is the name of his father's family)

cognomina (this name is individual, too, due to some properties of the child)
Later, the cognomia stood for the stirps.

Sometimes there were agnomen; Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus (=the winner in Africa)

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Sort of true, but that sounds a bit too rooted in modern naming conventions. The praenomen is not really a Chrstian name, it was very rarely used outside of adulthood except for friendly purposes. Only Caesar's close friends would have called him Gaius. Mostly used to distinguish between children living in the same household, father and son etc. Also sons after the fifth son were not always named in sequence, or named for sequence. Sextus Pompeius or Sextus Roscius were not the 6th sons of their families for example.

The nomen gentile is the father's gens (clan/house) name in the gender appropriate form. For example Julius for male offspring, Julia for female offspring. The Cornelii were a very powerful house in Roman politcs, their number including over 50 consuls, including Sulla. The use of the word family here should be taken more in the mafia sense of the word than the blood sense of the word - there is no real modern equivalent.

The cognomen is inheritted from father to son and identfy an individual or family within a gens.

Agnomen were awarded or possibly inheritted for a few generations.

My point is why does one house in the game use the gens name and the other two use the cognomen?

Al Khalifah,

you are right. The names Brutii and Scipii are silly; I guess they are used because people know the persons.

And it is also true that the meaning of the Cognomina changed during time.

P. (Praenomina) Sextius (Gentile’s Name) Baculus (Individual Cognomina), P. (Praenomina) Cornelius (Gentile) Scipio (Family’s Cognomina) Nasica (2nd Family’s Cognomina) Corculum (Individual Cognomina).

For those who moght want to know. Here are the Male Praenomina

• Amulius
• Appius (Ap.) — only used by gens Claudia.
• Aulus (A.) or Olus — from aula ("palace").
• Camillus — associated with gentes Furia/Arruntia after being fused in the 1st century AD.
• Decius — associated with gens Minatia.
• Decimus (D.) — "tenth".
• Drusus — after Tiberius became a praenomen of gens Claudia.
• Flavius — from flavus ("golden"), imperial praenomen after the 3rd century AD.
• Gaius (C.) — often written as Caius, because abbreviation is "C" and not "G".
• Gnaeus (Cn.) — often written as Cnaeus, similar to Gaius/Caius situation.
• Herius — associated with gens Asinia.
• Kaeso (K.) or Caeso — uncommon.
• Lucius (L.) — from lux ("light"), common.
• Mamercus (Mam.)
• Manius (M'.) — uncommon, "M'." often confused with "M."
• Marcus (M.) — from Mars, common.
• Numerius (N.) — associated with gens Fabia.
• Postumus
• Publius (P.) — from publius ("public"), common.
• Quintus (Q. or Qu.) — "fifth", common.
• Secundus — "second".
• Septimus (Sept.) — "seventh".
• Servius (S. or Ser.) — from servo ("to preserve"), uncommon.
• Sextus (Sex.) — "sixth".
• Spurius (Sp.) — from spurius ("of illegitimate birth").
• Tertius — "third".
• Tiberius (Ti.) — from the river, common.
• Titus (T.) — possibly from titulus ("title of honor"), common.

Female Praenomina
Appia
Aula
Fausta
Gaia
Gnaea
Iulla
Lucia
Mania
Marcia
Numeria
Oppia
Paula/Polla
Postuma
Publia
Quinta
Salvia
Servia
Spuria
Tiberia
Titia
Vibia

I guess there are many ideas for new members' names.

By the way: Franconicus is my Individual Cognomina, of course. It means that I descent from the Germanian tribe of the Franc (a group of bandits and adventurers) or that I won against them ~D

Infact, didn't the Bruttii fight with Hannibal during the Second Punic war? The land occupied by the Bruttii Roman faction is the same land where the people known as the Brutti lived. Unfortunately for them the war didn't go so well and I think most of them were enslaved.

Whether that's relevant, I don't know. Perhaps the land they inhabbitted was named after the family and hence the people named after the land or vice-versa.

Al Khalifah is not a good example of a Roman name, but I will not change my name to suit the infidels.

As far as I know, the name of the people of Bruttium have nothing to do with the family. Especially, as is stated before, since the Romans themselves would never have called the Brutii (or Junii) family Brutii!

The Name Brutus was given to Lucius Junius, who pretended to be an idiot (=brutus) for years so the last king of Rome, Tarquinius Superbus, would think he was a threat and have him killed. After he finally ousted the king he was one of the first consuls of Rome, and it is said he had two of his sons executed because they conspired with the Tarquinii to give them the kingship back. Anyway, afterwards 'Brutus' was given to him as an honorary name, which was used in the family for generations (The most famous being Marcus Junius Brutus, one of the murderers of Caesar and the one for Shakespeare's play).

the answer is simple
the scipii were the most distinguish family in republican rome but they were just one family in the cornelii clan and did not have any political connection with the other cornelii like cethegus . cinna . sulla . lentulus etc' so CA were right to call them just scipii
the facts are the same about the brutii . they were just one family in the iunii clan (with pera . pulus . silanus . penus etc') so again CA were right .
now about the iulii . since the 3 century bce there was only one family in this clan - the caesars so iulii and caesars were the same and it is logical to think that CA thought that the name "caesars" would create confusion because "caesar" was the name of all the emperors who did not existed in 270 bce . when the game starts

hey but you all know that rome total war is not really a realistic game . if you want that . you should play RTR
~:cheers:

A simple layman explaination is that when you say Ceasar the first people think is the emperor of Rome at least for somebody who have interest in history (or Hollywood movies). It's like a very common simple name but have been make 'exclusive' by certain event or one person.

The simplest example is Jesus. A simple common jewish name prior to the you all know...