For all veterans of STW and MTW if you wander here by

To all who might wander here around.

http://totalwars.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=67141#67141

When you mourn for the past, a part of you is there. You have to keep that in memory and go on. With doing this peace will settle in your mind and body.
Future is always unpredictable.

Regarding relations in TW community, people we know and we enjoyed talking with. Things have changed. Too many have already left and just few of us stayed. Golden ages of STW and some less bright of MTW have passed. A community we know back then has changed. Partly because of RTW as a game with many issues which needed to be solved and mainly because of people hesitation.

That period of a few months waiting is what killed the TW MP community.Unfortunately the community let the newcomers takeover and make this the dominant game style. While they complained and waited for patches a new community was formed and the old vets had nothing to go back to.

Few old clans are still insisting. Many new clans are found almost every weak and also disbanding in same time.

It is uncertain what it will bring in near future and how things will be envolving. It is time for us to realize this. After all, all good things have their end.

For the last time I bow to all players of TW MP series who left. A new era has begun.
It is on us what to do with the time which is given to us. I will stay here. I don't know for how long.Despite this I'm looking foward in the new beginning. Afterall time will tell us what we what will be.

VorCid

Still growing, every day!

1.7Bear7Clips
2.AggonyJim
3.AggonyKing
4.AggonyShields
5.Bravo
6.Chaos-Ektoras
7.CoR-Lord_AE2
8.Elthore
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11.Forumite-Shireknight
12.Forumite-SiiDeMon
13.FotN-Zyflex
14.FrozenJedi
15.GeneralTildor
16.Gullkassa
17.Hunter-King_George
18.Ichi
19.Imperial_Legionaire-Quentus
20.LegXGem-Vestorius
21.LofM-Bouwzie
22.LofM-Imorthorn
23.LofM-Kharn_The_Betrayer
24.LofM-Little_SNEAK
25.LofM-Psyco
26.LofM-Reeper
27.LofM-Romulus
28.LofM-Shadow
29.LofM-Shinobi
30.LofM-SkullBreaker
31.LuminousSun
32.Maji-MasterofPuppets
33.MizuDef
34.Mizu-MarcusCornelius
35.NDR_Dragons-YellowMelon
36.Nigel
37.NimbleNota
38.PraetorianGuard2004
39.RabidGibbon
40.RBL-Gazelite
41.RTK-Agravain
42.SC-KrooK
43.SC-Tryku
44.Silent-Wind
45.SPID- KingArtorius
46.SPID-ButcherA
47.SPID-GeneralMayhem
48.SPID-Madpierre
49.SPID-Malchance
50.SPID-Spartan
51.SPID-TheGore
52.SPID-thepig
53.Storm_Eagle_5
54.The_Mark
55.THOK-ArchdukeLion
56.THOK-KingAndre_TheHospitaller
57.THOK-SirCommoner
58.Tomisama
59.Triumvriant-Boneapart
60.VH-General_Beefy
61.VH-MarcusP
62.VH-NihilisticCow
63.VH-Wishazu
64.Voigtkampf
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72.WOT-MrBurgis
73.WOT-MrWillHelm
74.WOT-SparhawkI
75.WOT-StrikerWrath
76.WOT-TheSummoner

As of today, seventy five candles in the darkness, besides your own :bow:

Very soon will be having a Special Clan Wars Competition just for Code of Honor signers (with a special provision for non Clan CoHs).

Just a little more time is need to put it all together.

The spam jockeys will eventually bore each other to death and move on, and we will still be here ~;)

While I can understand and empathise with your comments Vorcid, there are a few points that have not been raised. Yes, STW was a great time but there were plenty in the MP lobby,even then, who would exploit flaws in the game.

When MTW came along we had the first few weeks great fun and good games......Before the exploits became known.......and yet again there were plenty who abused this flaw in the game.

One of the biggest ruiners of the TW games.... 'Stat Compare Tool'

Yes it was very well made but what did it do, constructively, for the game?
IMO, Nothing.
It identified the top statistical army for a given florin level and ruined the fun that unique factions brought into the game. The CWC was littered with Euro armies of the ( yawn ) usual cav/sword construction. Just as you stated, MTW did not quite measure up to STW as a game but I fear that was mainly due to the way it was played. I remember a quote from Sinan ( a fine member of this community ) when talking about lines of pavs.......

" Was this the way the game was intended to be played? LOL. Of course not."

RTW came along and surprise, surprise, there are flaws in the game. And surprise, surprise, people are exploiting them......Nothing new there then. Unfortunately though, this time a vast majority of TW Vets have migrated from the game, again, just as you pointed out and we are left with a different lobby altogether.....Or is it? Yes there are some rude people who join games and start dictating how that game should be played, generally act rude such as telling people to "hurry up" etc, etc... Possibly there are more now but we have had such people before RTW.
What made the difference was knowing that [ insert player name ] is an honourable player and therefore we can expect a good game. With so many old names missing, the games have become a lottery.

Speaking for myself, I have never, knowingly, used an exploit. I have never studied stats nor used a stat compare tool. I always pick my armies based on fun and variety and never mathematical efficiency [ ie win at all cost ]
I am convinced that if others took this same approach, RTW would be no better and no worse than the others but, sadly, the need to 'pwn' is too strong. As I have said, this is not a new phenomenon but it is highlighted by the lack of those reliable old Vets

.......Orda

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

One of the biggest ruiners of the TW games.... 'Stat Compare Tool'

It identified the top statistical army for a given florin level and ruined the fun that unique factions brought into the game.

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The problem was the underlying imbalance in the game. The Stat Compare Tool just allowed a player to quantify it and find the statistically superior army quicker than if done by experience only. The game would have converged to the same narrow solution even without the Stat Compare Tool.

The combat system used in Total War games requires good balance for it work well. The popular idea that more units equals a better game isn't true unless those units are well balanced. I don't see the commitment from CA to balance this game to the degree necessary for the combat system to function properly. Maybe when players get tired of RTW, they will come back and play Samurai Wars which does have sufficient balance for the combat engine to play to it's full potential.

It all boils down to one question......Do people want to play TW or not?

Yes, I have played STW, MTW/VI and RTW.
Yes, there are imbalances in all three versions.

The Community.......Yes it has been a great community to meet up with and play enjoyable games.
As far as army selections go. Each individual chose armies to suit their style of play. Whether it was the 'pav shootout' 'cav charge' or the 'hand to hand' fighting.
As for the new type of community that is predominant in RTW, who is to blame for that? I believe it is the 'old community' that decided they wouldn't play RTW until they could play it the way they have played other TW games.
There are still players from the old clans in RTW and playing on a regular basis.

To quote Orda Khan.....
Yes there are some rude people who join games and start dictating how that game should be played, generally act rude such as telling people to "hurry up" etc, etc... Possibly there are more now but we have had such people before RTW.

Games I host I dont let them dictate the terms but I do ask 'No rules just honourable play' when asked what the rules are.
CoH.......I always have and always will play on similar lines to the Code of Honour.
It should not be necessary for people to 'sign up' to a code of conduct when playing. This is something that should be the norm.

Jochi

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

The problem was the underlying imbalance in the game. The Stat Compare Tool just allowed a player to quantify it and find the statistically superior army quicker than if done by experience only. The game would have converged to the same narrow solution even without the Stat Compare Tool.

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You know I disagree with you here Yuuki. The problem is the player not the game. Some people simply cannot play what they have without knowing the ultimate best choice for a given florin level. The Compare Tool just compounded that problem by laying it out in black and white for anyone to see the 'best army' When you couple this with the innate desire to 'pwn' the opponent we see the sorry state that MTW became. I hold the same view as Sinan, the game had so much more to offer but the players could not see that. It's all down to EGO.

The unique faction difference in RTW (and MTW for that matter) can provide an interesting , fun battle but regardless of balance, the player comes along that MUST win, MUST 'pwn'. That is where the problem lies.

I used to be into weightlifting in a big way when I was younger. I was bloody strong and people used to ask why I didn't compete. What's the point, when Joe nobody can come along, do a bit, dump some 'roids and blow me away?

I've come to the conclusion that it's a mindset thing and as long as we have inflated egos, these games will never be perfect. I sure as hell don't play these games to get stressed out over losing

.........Orda

One letter received:

Can you put my name under the section "refuses the code of honor" because the whole point of MP is to beat someone and say "ha ha I beat you!"

I accept some of the code but I just think its stupid

My answer:

If ever you should get to the point where just having a good time with people who will treat you with respect means more to you than winning, please let me know.

Salute!

Maybe not the best I could have done, it just came out that way.


You know it’s really kind of a shame to have to have a written Code, but as I hope you can see, it was born of necessity.

We were ushered into Total War with concepts of what it meant to be Samurai, and of the spirit of Bushido (Bu-martial arts; shi-warrior; do-the way).

They have had no such advantage…

It's indeed not good that a code is needed, but it certainly helps identifying the people who know how to play so that all players have fun.

And could the people who care about honour, fun balanced armies please keep the Sengoku Jidai mod in mind. It will take 2 or 3 months, but we want release the 4th Kawanakajima battle and I would really appreciate it if respectfull MP-players could help out once we start beta-testing.

:bow:

I must confess, I was not involved in the TW community during the days of STW and MTW/VI. Now that I am here, I wish I had been. I feel that a seperate community of "old guard" members would be a great place to go to, not least for nostalgia purposes.
Senior members, I salute you. :bow:

I agree its sad the the CoH is needed, I feel it all comes down to the fact theat people are naturally reluctant to change. The Old vets (i myself played a fair amount of MTW/VI) are used to having fun playing the game with people they know and trust to act in an honarable way, and if the odd n00b did turn up in a game 99 time out of 100 the vets would hand their butts to them on the battle field and send them running off with their tails between their legs.

Now in Rome everyone has started from a level playing field and its not so easy to beat these n00bs anymore as they have played the game as much as the 'Vets' and they also take great delight in beating some one who is a known STW/MTW vet.

But i think things are already getting better in rome, the n00bs get bored and run off to harras another gaming community and we have a new group of non STW/MTW vets who are equally as Honarable as those who have been around since the good old Days. Just give it a chance! the n00bs will dwindle, a new community mixture of vets and 'fresh blood' will be inplace, and when the expansion comes(??) some noobs will come back but will get sent packing by the experianced vets just as happend in MTW/VI.

Everygame has flaws, but if you know your opponents are not going to deliberatly exploit them then Rome is a very enjoyable multi player game.

Those are my hope anyway.
Page_Edward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

You know I disagree with you here Yuuki. The problem is the player not the game. Some people simply cannot play what they have without knowing the ultimate best choice for a given florin level. The Compare Tool just compounded that problem by laying it out in black and white for anyone to see the 'best army'. When you couple this with the innate desire to 'pwn' the opponent we see the sorry state that MTW became. I hold the same view as Sinan, the game had so much more to offer but the players could not see that. It's all down to EGO.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with being competitive. Most players are competitive, and are going to try to win. The Stat Compare Tool helped players field more competitive armies in MTW. It put competitive and less competitive players on more of a level field in the unbalanced army purchase phase of the game. If you play Samurai Wars, no Stat Compare Tool is needed because the units are balanced, and they maintain predictable performance because upgrades are not used. The competitive player will gain no advantage over less competitive players by studying stats in Samurai Wars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Edward

Just give it a chance! the n00bs will dwindle, a new community mixture of vets and 'fresh blood' will be inplace, and when the expansion comes(??) some noobs will come back but will get sent packing by the experianced vets just as happend in MTW/VI.

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I did give RTW a chance, and the gameplay is horrible. There is no indication that BI will significantly improve the gameplay.

I agree that the people we play the games with makes a huge difference. Even though im tempted to pop in to the mtw/vi mp lobby regularly its hard to find a good game either because opponents are now of a totally different standard, or because of this " must win " mind-set that is shown even by many of the more experienced players.

I must however, stick to my view that there are some fundemental flaws in rtw combat engine, battle features, and unit stats. Ones which were odviously not there in the first two games. These things severely reduce the tactics, skill actually required to win, and the general logevity of enjoyment of RTW has, and as such i do not find myself wanting to play other than in single player campaign mode or in a serverely modded form. MTW may have had " exploits " to the stats, but to my knoledge there were no major falts or issues with the actual engine. So regardless of the players and their attitude, i dont think rtw could ever be as good as its predecessors, saved perhaps by the expansion pack ( which will hopefully fix the damn charge factor bug and include a 4 max rule for multiplayer ).

.[VDM]BuuKenshin

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I did give RTW a chance, and the gameplay is horrible.

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Amen !

Well i guess you are always going to lose some people when you change over. I'm sorry to see you guys leave. ~:(

Not that it matters, but I agree with Yuuki on everything he has written in this thread.

I know that the Stat Tool led to the discovery of the 'strongest' armies, and hence homogenaztion, but VI 'back in the day' was still very fun and challenging despite this.

Even with the cav/pav/sword there were folks who used other armies - desert games for example - and with the standardization what we were left with was the basic differences between players - who could click fast, who could stay organzied, who could see ahead, who could work as part of a team.

STW and VI were both a blast, while they lasted.

*bows* to Tomisama and his friends who have made CoH what it is.

Thanks

ichi :bow:

On the contrary, the compare tool was responsible for reducing the game to endless Euro armies we saw in the CWC battles.
How was this good for the game?

There were a few weeks where MTW was really good and these were during the period when the exploits had not been figured out. Later on, due to optimisers, a player was forced to take the same armies.

Competitiveness is fine, most of us play to win but I don't subscribe to the notion that a tool that singles out an optimum army is a wonderful asset to the game. Likewise, looking for tricks and flaws and exploits serves for nothing but reducing the game enjoyment

......Orda

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buujin

I agree that the people we play the games with makes a huge difference.
.[VDM]BuuKenshin

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Yes Buu I agree with you there. The gameplay is not the best (maybe not 'horrible) but at least with players you know you can have some good 'fun' games. There were a lot of things we didn't like in MTW/VI but we kept on playing. There was no mass exodus.

Quote:

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Originaly posted by VorCid
That period of a few months waiting is what killed the TW MP community.Unfortunately the community let the newcomers takeover and make this the dominant game style. While they complained and waited for patches a new community was formed and the old vets had nothing to go back to.

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Unfortunately, there are a large number of 'players' in RTW that seem determined to spoil the game for whoever they meet in battle.

One of the disturbing factors noted is the constant use of bad language in games and in the lobby. There is no need for this and on times it is downright rude and derogatory. I am no prude, I have seen service in the army.

But still, if the game is approached as a fun thing, fun can still be had.
Don't let progress spoil something that we have all enjoyed in our own way,
the means to meet up, have games and enjoy the chat involved.

Tomi, I am not against the Code of Honour, it is a good idea, it's just that I believe people should be prepared to play in an honourable manner.

Jochi

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How was this good for the game?

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Guys like me, who didn't know all about game mechanics when I started, had a chance against guys like you and Yuuki, who understood how things worked.

With the unit tools I wasn't already beaten when the battle started because my army didn't stand a chance. I still got beat by the stronger guys, but at least I had a chance.

I agree with you that the unit compare tools led to a rapid standardization; I also agree with you that seeking/using cheats/bugs/exploits is wrong; but the fact remains that there was a 'strong' army and eventually we would have all found it.

There's a lot of folks who came (still coming) online who never heard of Yas or the Org, and they learn which armies have an inherent disadvantage.

The tools speed up the process, that's all. And IMHO the game was fun for nearly 2 years. Hell, its still fun. So we disagree, and I think I'll let the thread get back on topic now.

ichi :bow:

Right now many veteran STW/MTW players are off playing other games. I'm playing Silent Hunter III at the moment with Krypta and CBR. You play as U-boat commanders against AI controlled surface ships, and can have up to 8 U-boats in a wolfpack. The game is very well done. A lot of players went to World of Warcraft which I've been told by Swoosh is very good as well. These are two examples of games that are so good I'm starting to think the veteran players who have left will never come back to Total War. As time passes there will be more good games available as alternatives to the Total War games.

We made Samurai Wars for the MTW/VI engine in an attempt to keep a veteran community of MP players active by making the gameplay as good as we could with the best Total War engine available, but it wasn't enough. I started working on Samurai Wars when I saw during the RTW v1.2 beta testing that the gameplay in RTW was not going to be brought up to the level of the previous games. However, the release of RTW v1.2 put the nail in the coffin for Samurai Wars. As long as Creative Assembly continues to think that poor implementation of features and poor playbalance is ok, they will continue to loose the players who value these things.

Slitherine makes great games as well.

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Originally Posted by ichi

Guys like me, who didn't know all about game mechanics when I started, had a chance against guys like you and Yuuki, who understood how things worked.

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Flattered though I am, I fear you have mistaken me for someone else.

I never studied stats, still don't and never will. I guess you could say I look upon these 'games' as 'battles' and prefer to select units that would make a believable army and hope that the battle is somewhat believable too.

The thread is still on topic, ichi. I offered my reasons why the game has deteriorated. It is the mindset of the TW player, wanting always to be the Best ( at playing a PC game ) and the lengths that some will go to.

......Orda

Samurai Wars was very good.

the reason its didnt keep my atention was because of the lack of variety. No upgrades, all factions have the same units ect.

But for what it was i liked it a lot.

both the MTW and RTW engines have their strong and weak points. MTW feels much too static for me now, it feels like moving blocks around, and not flexible formations. RTW doesnt have this problem but has bad terrain bonuses/penalties, less logical morale system, and a number of other problems (routing units die much too easily).

I must admit I haven't played RTW vanilla much, but I feel the major spoilers are too strong archer and cavalry units. Both types already have unique advantage (range for one, speed for the other) but by giving them killing power (atleast) equal to infantry that makes infantry obsolete. Too strong infantry can still be countered with some skill, but archers and cavalry are much too "noob friendly" for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buujin

Samurai Wars was very good.

the reason its didnt keep my atention was because of the lack of variety. No upgrades, all factions have the same units ect.

But for what it was i liked it a lot.

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You can't have upgrades and keep the units balanced because of the way the upgrade system works. Also, all clans having the same unit selection means better balance. With only 14 units you actually have more variety in army selection than you have in MTW/VI with it's 100 unbalanced units. Unit balance, strong RPS and battle pacing are the main features of Samurai Wars. The Mongols faction may be added to Samurai Wars, but it will take a lot of work to maintian the playbalance that now exists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orda Khan

It is the mindset of the TW player, wanting always to be the Best ( at playing a PC game ) and the lengths that some will go to.

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This is not exclusive to Total War gamers. You're talking about human nature.

Also, Total War games do not accurately simulate the historical effectiveness of weapons or warriors. If you choose your army based on historical makeup, you are going to be at a disadvantage in this game. Most players aren't going to take unit X just because historically unit X was better than unit Y when in the game it looses to unit Y. They are going to take unit Y.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

This is not exclusive to Total War gamers. You're talking about human nature.

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Precisely the point I have been making, however some of us are less insecure in ourselves and do not always look for exploits.

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Also, Total War games do not accurately simulate the historical effectiveness of weapons or warriors.

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Maybe, but I am sure this was the intention, as in spears beat cav, swords beat spears, cav beat swords. That is quite historically accurate.

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If you choose your army based on historical makeup, you are going to be at a disadvantage in this game.

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Only if others do not.

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Most players aren't going to take unit X just because historically unit X was better than unit Y when in the game it looses to unit Y. They are going to take unit Y.

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Perhaps they should give it a try. I played many battles with an historical theme and they were very enjoyable. At the very least it certainly beat the cav/sword/pav monotony

.......Orda

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At the very least it certainly beat the cav/sword/pav monotony

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it boils down to taste - I fought thousands of battles and rarely if ever found it monotonous. VI, even 7 cav 5 MAA 4 pav 10K steppe VI, was (still is) the most fun I've ever had on a computer game.

Quote:

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it is the mindset of the TW player, wanting always to be the Best ( at playing a PC game ) and the lengths that some will go to.

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Everybody plays for their own reasons, and I understand what you are saying about the homogenization that occured.

But it is possible to want to win, or a least give a good accounting of oneself, without losing perspective. There's a difference between wanting to win-at-all-costs and wanting to be competitive, and IMO there's nothing wrong being competitive, even on a pc game.

Since some folks found the 'best' army, I went out and found the best one for me, and that meant studying stats and learning about the game engine. I still won some and lost some, and still enjoyed the game and the community immensely, but at least I wasn't beaten before a match began because I had an inherently weak army.

ichi :bow:

Does anyone following this thread know about what progress is being make on a Sengoku Jidai mod of RTW? I think that will not have the same serious balance problems of RTW, and it will be like a classic reborn. If anyone's heard anything, I would be grateful to know :bow:

Two things regarding Sengoku Jidai,

firstly, go look in the " hosted mods " forum, not here.

Secondly, i would be very surprised the mod is balanced because rome wont allow it. The charge bonus value is bugged, and is instead determined by armour rating and attack value. This means all sorts of problems for stats balancing. I dont think any rome mod can be anywhere near as good as the old games untill this fixed