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Teraz and folks, here are the comparative tables between ya, musks (ashi) and sa, ys (samurai).
The tables are based upon 100 man units and assuming that the relationship regarding morale is kept the same regardless of the casualty/number of man in starting unit.
...in other words, regardless of how many units u play with in ur settings! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Read carefully http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
hon 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
YA 100 140 196 274 384 538 753 1054
YS 200 280 392 549 769 1076 1506 2108
MU 175 245 343 480 672 941 1317 1844
SA 300 420 588 823 1152 1613 2258 3162
Now, can u get to the battle factor ratings regarding honour and morale ? lemme help ya http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I will post in here the factors regarding honour only coz it's THESE which affect the way troops behave in combat and leave out those regarding formations and the like, since they have nothing to do with morale (which is calculated with losses-honour only)
+Attacker's personal honour+unit's honour/2
-Defender's personal honour+unit's honour/2
+general's rank/2 - defender's general rank/2
+charge bonus (variable)
-defender's extra armour
etc... etc... etc...
As u can see the honour of the unit is counted in the morale because it directly affects the way unit fights and therefore takes losses.
Now let's compare an archer unit with honour 3 and an ashi muskets with the same honour 3.
sa 420 koku mu 245 koku.
Since the mu have same range as archers (bull), plus they shoot through friends and intervening terrain (big bull), their disadvantage in h-h is totally useless. They frankly even up the disadvantage with weather, for this same disadvantage is one for the attacker most (units tire quickly and archers' range is reduced) and regards defnder only for his gun units.
As u can see, with the same cost of highly trained SAMURAI archers, ur enemy can get the same training ashigaru but almost TWICE the number of men! And this honour will grant that ashi a superior morale in battle. Those musks will be fresh when ur men arrive there and YOU will rout even if u have higher honour.
An archer unit of 3 will rout when samurais rout. A musk will not rout for in battles with 6000 and more koku available, the player will CERTAINLY take a musk with 4 or higher honour (actually more than one musk) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif and make sure that his musks don't rout at seeing samurais routing, in fact, i have often seen my enemy routing and his general killed passing THROUGH the muskets and those muskets KEPT ON FIRING at me.
U can easily understand that an ashi with a superior honour will not rout when faced by peril even if samurais ahead are routing.
The way to correct this (but mind that range of missiles should be corrected as well) is to increase the exponential cost of the honour for units.
We must tweak the units...find these values and correct them. The cost for rising honour which should be higher for ashigaru since they are PEASANTS, the morale, the range especially.
I would also like to remind the fact that guns COST A LOT while ashigaru cost very little...equipping a teppo with 100 guns can NOT be possible with 245 koku because they should cost much more.
An archer has a bow and training, plus is samurai (morale) they cost normally. The musk has to be an ashi and so cost little (and with little morale) but the guns to equip him and ammo and powder DO COST A LOT MORE THAN ARROWS AND BOWS!
This is it...i hope everybody understands now WHY they loose in battle when it doesn't rain http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
The general's honour is highly important in battle. Why not choosing to make general an ashigaru musks with 6 ? it will cost relatively few and ALL the troops under his command will have a bonus granted http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
I frankly hope u all understand that the comparison of unit costs and the relationship honour/morale is the straw unbalancing the game UNFAIRLY towards guns.
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Excellent job Yamaga!
Yes, this proofs that musketeers are more like teppo samurai than teppo ashigaru...
I like very much this:
hon 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
YA 100 140 196 274 384 538 753 1054
YS 200 280 392 549 769 1076 1506 2108
MU 175 245 343 480 672 941 1317 1844
SA 300 420 588 823 1152 1613 2258 3162
It is very straightforward.
So, there are to solutions:
1) Changing the cost of muskeeters
2) Changing their morale variables
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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.
Visit my resource centre at:
http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa
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I don't want to argue with your numbers, but it has been my experience that archers can be better than muskets in real battles.
My example is Totomi, which is a musket-friendly map if ever there was one. I am aware that many people pick honour 0 or honour 1 muskets, knowing that honour does not affect their accuracy/attack strength.
If I pick honour 3 archers, I will rout the muskets, every time. And when the battle becomes a melee, my archers can still be useful, where muskets can not.
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I agree with Rob: the key ingredient is versatility. Muskets are only good for one thing, in good weather. Archers have multiple roles for a good general. So muskets may be "better" in sheer mathematics, but archers are better for an army. Unfortunately, this is more true in Single Player, than it is online, since in online play, you don't use the same men in the next battle.
-- B)
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I am in general opposed to the use of statistics to determine which is the 'best' unit. I am much more in favour of intuitive decision-making, where the instincts of the commander are more important than statistics in determining how to make use of his army. I really don't see the point in endlessly trying to 'prove' the superiority of one troop type over the other. There is no 'best' unit type. There are 'best' unit types for certain situations. Naginata are best for holding a defensive line, Yari Samurai are best for stopping a cavalry charge, No-Dachi are best for flanking attacks etc.
The important thing is not knowing the precise statistics of every unit, but knowing how to use them in battle. After all, in battle you face an unpredictable opponent. All the statistics in the world won't help you win if your opponent has better tactics.
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Quote Originally posted by Rob:
I don't want to argue with your numbers, but it has been my experience that archers can be better than muskets in real battles.
My example is Totomi, which is a musket-friendly map if ever there was one. I am aware that many people pick honour 0 or honour 1 muskets, knowing that honour does not affect their accuracy/attack strength.
If I pick honour 3 archers, I will rout the muskets, every time. And when the battle becomes a melee, my archers can still be useful, where muskets can not.[/QUOTE]
u forget who the real enemy is...the general's honour is fundamental.
If he picks honour 6 musk, then ALL his musks will tear you to pieces http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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General's honour? I presume then you were referring to the campaign game. I was thinking of online battles.
Anyhow, what if it rains? Fat lot of good honour 6 monks are then http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Rob, yes I agree with you...tactics are the msot important but statistics help to make tactics. The knowledge that Yamaga brought in is important because in someway it will help to interpret musket tactics.
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Honour to Clan Kenchikuka.
Visit my resource centre at:
http://terazawa_tokugawa.tripod.com/terazawatokugawa
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Quote Originally posted by Rob:
General's honour? I presume then you were referring to the campaign game. I was thinking of online battles.
In online battles, the only difference is the ai of your opponent.
The game makes no distinction, a general is a general regardless his ai or hi.
Why do u think online players choose ashi musk as general ? For they can afford to rise to honour 5 without paying too much for that and STILL get the battlefield multiplayer bonus.
I have posted those modifiers in a previous message.
The lines i mean is :
+ Attacker's personal honour+unit's honur/2
-Defender's personal honour+unit's honour/2
(www.totalwar.com, posted by LANZA)
As u can see, in multiplayer battles we can assume that the personal honour is the same but in the modifiers the unit's honour plays a LEAD role in choosing the victor in a 1 vs 1 unit melee.
Anyhow, what if it rains? Fat lot of good honour 6 monks are then http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
Yeah, as things are now, only choice for the attacker are rain and bows/monks...but don't forget that rain reduces archers' range AND tires men quickly.
We both know the offense has the move while defender digs up on hills. So however u wanna put it there u go, choosing rain to avoid muskets is STILL a bad deal for the offense if it is chosen just to avoid enemy guns.
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Quote Originally posted by Rob:
General's honour? I presume then you were referring to the campaign game. I was thinking of online battles.
In online battles, the only difference is the ai of your opponent.
The game makes no distinction, a general is a general regardless his ai or hi.
Why do u think online players choose ashi musk as general ? For they can afford to rise to honour 5 without paying too much for that and STILL get the battlefield multiplayer bonus.
I have posted those modifiers in a previous message.
The lines i mean is :
+ Attacker's personal honour+unit's honur/2
-Defender's personal honour+unit's honour/2
(www.totalwar.com, posted by LANZA)
As u can see, in multiplayer battles we can assume that the personal honour is the same but in the modifiers the unit's honour plays a LEAD role in choosing the victor in a 1 vs 1 unit melee.
Anyhow, what if it rains? Fat lot of good honour 6 monks are then http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
Yeah, as things are now, only choice for the attacker are rain and bows/monks...but don't forget that rain reduces archers' range AND tires men quickly.
We both know the offense has the move while defender digs up on hills. So however u wanna put it there u go, choosing rain to avoid muskets is STILL a bad deal for the offense if it is chosen just to avoid enemy guns.
