Etymology of the Hoplite

In the text description of hoplites troops it states that the word hoplite derives from the word 'hoplon' which is the large shield the soldier carried.
'Makes sense' I thought, until I was browisng Wikipedia and saw this entry :

"Warfare in Hellenic Greece centered mainly around heavy infantrymen called hoplites. The word hoplite (Greek ὁπλίτης, hoplitēs) derives from hoplon (ὅπλον, plural hopla, ὅπλα) meaning an item of armour or equiment, but not the circular shield carried by a hoplite, which is incorrectly referred to as a hoplon. In fact it is called an aspis."

So what is the real meaning of the word 'Hoplon'?

wikipedia is spot on, there's not much more to say really. A hoplite is simply an armoured soldier.

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The word hoplite (Greek ὁπλίτης, hoplitēs) derives from hoplon (ὅπλον, plural hopla, ὅπλα) meaning an item of armour or equiment, but not the circular shield carried by a hoplite, which is incorrectly referred to as a hoplon.

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That is debateable.
For every article of text that says this I can refer you to 10 that say differently.
This one

Or this

And here

and thats only a quick 2 min google search. I could also point you in the direction of numerous books on the subject but as my wife is standing over me threatening violence if I dont ....."get my ass of the computer and come and have dinner" so it will have to wait until later when I can play with the edit button.

And they're all wrong, based on the same misconception. It's one of those things that is stated as gospel all over the web, and in every poorly researched book on greek warfare...

My modern Greek isn't up to scratch, so hoplon might be synonymos with shield now, but not in ancient greek. Hoplon could be used to refer to a shield, as part of a panoply of armour, but it's not specific, and it's not the name of the shield.

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Originally Posted by Catiline

And they're all wrong, based on the same misconception. It's one of those things that is stated as gospel all over the web, and in every poorly researched book on greek warfare...

My modern Greek isn't up to scratch, so hoplon might be synonymos with shield now, but not in ancient greek. Hoplon could be used to refer to a shield, as part of a panoply of armour, but it's not specific, and it's not the name of the shield.

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100% correct..

ΟΠΛΟ means WEAPON so ΟΠΛΙΤΗΣ means MAN AT ARMS
heh we call our privates even today ΟΠΛΙΤΕΣ...
SHIELD in ancient and modern greek is ΑΣΠΙΣ/ΑΣΠΙΔΑ...

Hellenes

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and in every poorly researched book on greek warfare

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Thats where you lost me. Guess you've written a few "well researched" tiltes then?
It's just to much of an effort to respond to that one!

nope, you've got me there. If we're going to discuss my credentials to make that sort of statement though, I do however have a degree in Ancient History and an Masters degree in Classics. I'm happy enough that qualifies me to at least make some comment on the quality of research in modern writing on the ancient world...

It's on a par with all the websites and books that tell you a vomitorium was somewhere the Romans went to puke during meals.

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Originally Posted by Revelation

That is debateable.
For every article of text that says this I can refer you to 10 that say differently.
This one

Or this

And here

and thats only a quick 2 min google search. I could also point you in the direction of numerous books on the subject

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Google is full of popular history and not usually a great source for the nitty-gritty facts ~;)

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Originally Posted by hellenes

100% correct..

ΟΠΛΟ means WEAPON so ΟΠΛΙΤΗΣ means MAN AT ARMS
heh we call our privates even today ΟΠΛΙΤΕΣ...
SHIELD in ancient and modern greek is ΑΣΠΙΣ/ΑΣΠΙΔΑ...

Hellenes

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I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT.

BELIVE OUR WORD WE ARE GREEK.

Interesting, isn't it, what the internet does to facts...it twists them beyond recogniton [cue evil music]

:book: - It's better for you

hoplon = heavy armed. hoplite = a heavy armed soldier

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Originally Posted by Periklis

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT.

BELIVE OUR WORD WE ARE GREEK.

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i aint greek but i can read it and it is correct

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Originally Posted by Emperor Umeu 1

i aint greek but i can read it and it is correct

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So what is your point? There are at least two persons in here that speak Greek and tell you that hoplon means weapon and hoplites means men at arms.

As Hellenes wrote we still call our privets (infantry soldiers) Hoplites.

I was one for 18 months i know.

Probably you saw it somewhere in written, may i ask where.

hoplon was also the attic word for tool as well as weapon.

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Originally Posted by Periklis

So what is your point? There are at least two persons in here that speak Greek and tell you that hoplon means weapon and hoplites means men at arms.

As Hellenes wrote we still call our privets (infantry soldiers) Hoplites.

I was one for 18 months i know.

Probably you saw it somewhere in written, may i ask where.

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saw what

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Originally Posted by Zizka

hoplon was also the attic word for tool as well as weapon.

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Not just yanks that get tooled up then

GAH!

Vanya can answer this one...

:book: :book: :book:

Hoplite derives from the word "hop", which means "to jump". It is also a plant from which a fine brew is derived. The term "lite", or "light" means of little weight, distance or otherwise measure.

Now, bear in mind that during the Hellenic period, the enemies of the Greeks described them as warriors that "hopped along like bunnies". Given that these warriors were weighted down by armor and the need to retain their formation for maximum killing efficacy, the jumps were obviosly "short" ones.

Hence the term "hoplite". It means "armored warrior that advances in short hops."

Lastly, the end of the battle was usually celebrated with booze. But alas, beer was not around yet, only wine. It would have been nice to have "warriors that advance in short hops towards the products of hops".

But Vanya would not mislead youz with such nonsense, since wine was the drink of the day in Greece.

:book: :book: :book:

GAH!

~:cheers:

[QUOTE=Vanya]GAH!

Lastly, the end of the battle was usually celebrated with booze. But alas, beer was not around yet, only wine.


Who said that there was no beer on ancient Greece, and not only. Beer was invented by the Egyptians. There are copies of ancient writers (in ancient Greek) that describe the differences between wine made from grapes (Wine) and wine made of Vine (Beer).

Actually one difference that is mentioned is that when someone drinks a lot of wine (the grapes one) he falls with the belly down (they throw up) and if you drink a lot of wine (made of vine) he wolf fall with the bally down (because beer cause you your belly to swells).

I can get you a copy from the certain document but you will not understand anything as it is on ancient Greek

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Originally Posted by hellenes

100% correct..

ΟΠΛΟ means WEAPON so ΟΠΛΙΤΗΣ means MAN AT ARMS
heh we call our privates even today ΟΠΛΙΤΕΣ...
SHIELD in ancient and modern greek is ΑΣΠΙΣ/ΑΣΠΙΔΑ...

Hellenes

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I seem to recall reading a long time ago that even in modern Greek the word for "deserter" is "ripsaspis", referring to the necessity of dumping the heavy shield to do a runner. Is that correct?

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Originally Posted by vastator

I seem to recall reading a long time ago that even in modern Greek the word for "deserter" is "ripsaspis", referring to the necessity of dumping the heavy shield to do a runner. Is that correct?

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In Modern Greek the word 'deserter' is 'lipotaktis'. I am not sure if in ancient Greek the same word was 'ripsaspis'. As i can understand the word 'ripsaspis' derives from two words. 'Ripto' and 'aspis'. 'Ripto' means (even in Modern Greek) throw and 'aspis' means shield (as Hellenes already wrote above). So in a free translation 'ripsaspis' means the man that throws his shield - obviously in order to run faster to save himself-. Have you ever seen a shield from the Hellenistic period. It is enormous to cover the area from the neck to the knee.

I am currently at work. When i get home i will try to fine the word in an ancient Greek - Modern Greek vocabulary.

i want answer, what did i saw

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Originally Posted by Periklis

In Modern Greek the word 'deserter' is 'lipotaktis'. I am not sure if in ancient Greek the same word was 'ripsaspis'. As i can understand the word 'ripsaspis' derives from two words. 'Ripto' and 'aspis'. 'Ripto' means (even in Modern Greek) throw and 'aspis' means shield (as Hellenes already wrote above). So in a free translation 'ripsaspis' means the man that throws his shield - obviously in order to run faster to save himself-. Have you ever seen a shield from the Hellenistic period. It is enormous to cover the area from the neck to the knee.

I am currently at work. When i get home i will try to fine the word in an ancient Greek - Modern Greek vocabulary.

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AS the Spartan mothres said ' Come back with your shield, or on it'

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Originally Posted by Catiline

nope, you've got me there. If we're going to discuss my credentials to make that sort of statement though, I do however have a degree in Ancient History and an Masters degree in Classics. I'm happy enough that qualifies me to at least make some comment on the quality of research in modern writing on the ancient world...

It's on a par with all the websites and books that tell you a vomitorium was somewhere the Romans went to puke during meals.

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May I ask: Where from; What were the entry requirements; How long did it take; and was it worthwhile and interesting? :bow:

Off topic I know, but I'm very interested in getting a degree in history and I'm soon to finish college and I don't have the privilege of knowing too many people with a history degree.

:book:

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Originally Posted by Periklis

In Modern Greek the word 'deserter' is 'lipotaktis'. I am not sure if in ancient Greek the same word was 'ripsaspis'. As i can understand the word 'ripsaspis' derives from two words. 'Ripto' and 'aspis'. 'Ripto' means (even in Modern Greek) throw and 'aspis' means shield (as Hellenes already wrote above). So in a free translation 'ripsaspis' means the man that throws his shield - obviously in order to run faster to save himself-. Have you ever seen a shield from the Hellenistic period. It is enormous to cover the area from the neck to the knee.

I am currently at work. When i get home i will try to fine the word in an ancient Greek - Modern Greek vocabulary.

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Thanks - I appreciate it! ~:cheers: Who says computer games aren't educational? ~D

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Originally Posted by Burnzy

May I ask: Where from; What were the entry requirements; How long did it take; and was it worthwhile and interesting? :bow:

Off topic I know, but I'm very interested in getting a degree in history and I'm soon to finish college and I don't have the privilege of knowing too many people with a history degree.

:book:

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Answer the first BBC. If that mean anthing now I'd be surprised, it meant buggerall then, either you wanted to do it or not...

Answer the second 4 years spread over 5 to get the MA, 3 for the BA

yes it was worthwhile and wore significantly it was definitely interesting...

Oh, and Durham

[QUOTE=Periklis]

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Originally Posted by Vanya

GAH!

Lastly, the end of the battle was usually celebrated with booze. But alas, beer was not around yet, only wine.


Who said that there was no beer on ancient Greece, and not only. Beer was invented by the Egyptians. There are copies of ancient writers (in ancient Greek) that describe the differences between wine made from grapes (Wine) and wine made of Vine (Beer).

Actually one difference that is mentioned is that when someone drinks a lot of wine (the grapes one) he falls with the belly down (they throw up) and if you drink a lot of wine (made of vine) he wolf fall with the bally down (because beer cause you your belly to swells).

I can get you a copy from the certain document but you will not understand anything as it is on ancient Greek

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GAH!

By your own admission, you state that "beer" was referred to as wine from the vine. So, as youz can see, even what we now call beer was called "wine" back then!

Vanya is never wrong you see. Vanya WAS THERE! (Although at the time, He wore a surrogate head that had one glass eye and a bird's nest flourishing in the opposite orb). Them silly parchments youz mention? Vanya wiped his arse with plenty more where that came from back in the old days of antiquity! (Though Vanya finds Kleenex more His taste nowadays...)

That brings up a fond ole memory... Way back in the time of Moses, Vanya ate a burrito with some bad guacamole. Well, Vanya's belly did not agree, and Vanya "had to go". He cut a swathe through the Pharoah's grand army, and with His great axe, cut the Nile canyons from the desert floor that would later be used as a burial site for great kings and pharoahs. Well, Vanya stormed up Mt. Sinai and ran into old man Moses when he was carving the 15 comandments. Vanya asked for parchment, but Moses gave Vanya one of the tablets. Vanya was furious, and cast the tablet aside claiming it to be "a tad too harsh" for Vanya's taste. Moses pleaded for his life... he was begging like a little girl. He even offered to sacrifice his son to Vanya if only He would let him live. And that whole burning bush thing? Well, Vanya let loose a little gas at the same time He knicked some rocks with His axe. Sparks flew from the blade, igniting the gaseous mass, which in turn, set the nearby flora ablaze! Divine, indeed! (Moses lost a few hairs on that one!) Now, bear in mind that Vanya was in an "emergency" state... He had no time to waste. So, he forgave the old man and left it at that. Naturally, Moses was happy to not have to cut his kid's throat. But, alas, the tablet he had offered was destroyed when Vanya tossed it to the ground and broke it. And that is why youz have only TEN commandments!

Of course, they won't tell you these awesome truths in skool because they want to keep youz in the dark so they can continue to fleece youz. But Vanya will set youz free.

Do youz see the light?!?

~:cheers:

GAH!

It is certainly true that in the Classical era hoplon was a fairly broad descriptor of the equipment of a heavy infantry soldier, and not a particular reference to the shield (as was aspis). But it should be noted that shields were not excluded from the term hoplon.

More importantly, however, is Diodorus. He is able to make the statement at 15.44.3, (a very poor paraphrase follows, but feel free to reference the original) that: Peltasts take their name from their pelta just as hoplites were named for their shields. The text only makes sense if by his day hoplon had also assumed the role of synonym for aspis. I would argue that Diodorus at least would agree with Revelation. That is not to say Diodorus is correct, hoplites were clearly not named for after their shields (since would be calling them aspilites, or something similar in that case), but rather just that ancient Greek usage was not monolithic. The connection of hoplon and the hoplite’s shield is not just the invention of poor scholarship or the internet.

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Originally Posted by Parmenion

In the text description of hoplites troops it states that the word hoplite derives from the word 'hoplon' which is the large shield the soldier carried.
'Makes sense' I thought, until I was browisng Wikipedia and saw this entry :

"Warfare in Hellenic Greece centered mainly around heavy infantrymen called hoplites. The word hoplite (Greek ὁpλίtης, hoplites) derives from hoplon (ὅpλον, plural hopla, ὅpλa) meaning an item of armour or equiment, but not the circular shield carried by a hoplite, which is incorrectly referred to as a hoplon. In fact it is called an aspis."

So what is the real meaning of the word 'Hoplon'?

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Originally Posted by Catiline

wikipedia is spot on, there's not much more to say really. A hoplite is simply an armoured soldier.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revelation

That is debateable.
For every article of text that says this I can refer you to 10 that say differently.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catiline

And they're all wrong, based on the same misconception. It's one of those things that is stated as gospel all over the web, and in every poorly researched book on greek warfare...

My modern Greek isn't up to scratch, so hoplon might be synonymos with shield now, but not in ancient greek. Hoplon could be used to refer to a shield, as part of a panoply of armour, but it's not specific, and it's not the name of the shield.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revelation

Thats where you lost me. Guess you've written a few "well researched" tiltes then?
It's just to much of an effort to respond to that one!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catiline

nope, you've got me there. If we're going to discuss my credentials to make that sort of statement though, I do however have a degree in Ancient History and an Masters degree in Classics. I'm happy enough that qualifies me to at least make some comment on the quality of research in modern writing on the ancient world...

It's on a par with all the websites and books that tell you a vomitorium was somewhere the Romans went to puke during meals.

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hee hee.

Take that Professor.

I think that pretty much sums up this whole thread, don't you?

Gah, indeed.