When do they attack?

I'm trying out the tactical battles for the first time in RTW (I did a lot in MTW). I was reading the Greek guides/suggestions on how to hold Syracuse and they all depend on you shooting them full of arrows (along with their seige weapons) while hiding behind your stone walls.

My problem is that the Scipii don't ever try to assult my walls. They just run out of arrow range and sit there. I have tried various ways of trying to bait them into a fight close to my walls but they woun't bite. I either have to attack in the open or lose by seige attrition. What causes them to build their engines and assult my castle walls?

(I could just dump Syracuse and focus my fighting on two fronts but I'm feeling stubborn.)

well you should not be attacking / sallying from syracuse , because if you do that then they will never use their siege equipment , in my experience anyway.

so let them siege you wait a turn or 2 and they will attack - that is if you dont save and load ~;)
it helps if you are a little outnumbered

:balloon2:

Syracuse is very hard to keep...most would say just to leave it.

But make sure you plunder it first.:charge:

What's with all the retreating bull?

I attacked Messena right away and won, sacking that city.

I then proceeded to Lilybaeum and later came back to defend Messena from more Scipii.

Take the fight to the enemy.

Syracuse is one of only two cities capable of producing Spartans.

You can also access Armoured Hops there amazingly early.

Sicily I find is a great battlefield for using the Hoplite square tactic. I have won many battles against overwhelming romans using the square tactic. It helps better if you have 1:2 odds (favouring enemy) and keep one unit (peasant/militia) in Syracuse and sit your army right outside. When they have enough men they will attack your field army. If done right a Hoplite square can easily fight off 2 20 stack roman armies. Just make sure you have at least one archer to fight off the velites.

If you don't know the square tactic it is when you form all your hoplites in a square spears out, try to keep a couple in the middle as reserves and just let the enemy attack. You can even just sit and watch the fight with no commanding as its just he enemies running onto your phalanx. When I play Greeks I always siege and let them attack me. Instead of fighting send a single army right beside two armies and they will attack you. Set up a square and wait. If done right you will easily win most times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by katank

What's with all the retreating bull?

I attacked Messena right away and won, sacking that city.

I then proceeded to Lilybaeum and later came back to defend Messena from more Scipii.

Take the fight to the enemy.

Syracuse is one of only two cities capable of producing Spartans.

You can also access Armoured Hops there amazingly early.

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katank is right. You can take Messana on the first turn. Attack the army in front of the town with everything you have (just after you sold them some maps ~D ). The garrison will come to aid. Make sure no one will be able to return.

Then Carthage will attack you. Make a counterstrioke towards Lilybaeum. This will make them withdraw from Syracuse. Then you have time to build new troops. And you can do it much faster than they will.

Within a few turns, you can produce armoured hops which are simply beastly with 9/22. It's like legionary cohorts albeit without pila but with phalanx

They are virtually invulnerable to missiles and have very nice morale. Then build large temple of nike to make em even better.

By that time, you should have consolidated Sicily.

Greeks have one of the best expansion opportunities, able to strike into Northern Greece and the Balkans, Sicily, and Asia Minor all at once.

I don't get why people say you should give up on Syracuse. I find that as long as you have four units of archers, some Militia Cav (to lure them in Archer range) and a good garrison in the unlikely event they get in, you should be fine.

This is not suppose to be in this thread but since we're talking about phalanx , what is the best way to counter the phalanx as Roman (I'm playing RTR 4.51). The slingers and archers don't dent much the hoplites , the only effective weapons are javelins but they're are limited.

Since I'm still pre-marian I only have hastati's and principees. Don't use muc triariis. Anyway is Triariis fares better against Hoplites that other Roman footsoldiers ?

Chees for any help...

Javelins aren't so much effective that they kill people as much as them leaving a dense formation full of holes and not so effective.

:vulcan:

You need to hit phalanxes from behind and from the sides, especially their right side (since their shields are on their left). Just put hastati or principes to the front, and then come in from the side and back with some triarii, and you can take them out. Just make sure to try and take them one at a time, otherwise you're going to lose a lot of soldiers.

If you need to separate phalanx units, just use your general's cavalry to run circles around them.

Or kill them with Cav. Charge your general into their flank and the phalanx will fold up, litterally.

I think there is a thread around here somewhere that shows how to use a staggered formation to defeat a solid phalanx line. I'm not really sure where that thread is though.

Syracuse...Syracuse...Oh there it is....
But that doesn't matter because the enemies don't engage you when you...SALLY FORTH! :charge:

I love saying that.

Lestat, read the 'swords vs phalanx' thread that I started up a week or two back in the colosseum archives. It will open your eyes.

To the Syracusan discussion, there is a variation to the take messana strategy: In my greek campaign I took messana and the next turn or so Lilybaeum came and besieged my army in Messana. So no chance to counterstrike on Lilybaeum. And if the Scipii won't come close enough to fight under Syracuses' walls, it's only a matter of your not sallying far enough. Move out further. They'll come. The Romans could never resist a good fight--But you may have to sacrifice a militia hoplite unit since that unit will probably never run back to the gates in time. But let them through the gates. Don't stand and fight. Make sure they are bottled up at the gates, and SLAUGHTER. Don't just leave the job to your towers, do something yourself too. And leave those archers on the walls to fire flaming arrows.

My stratagy was to take Messana first turn but wait a while before taking on the Carthaginians. You could crush them quite easily but there will be a Scipii counter attack.

Build up. Right after it comes, crush them, put a good sized army on a boat and send them over to the SOUTH side of Capua. If you are on the north, there is a chance that the Senate army will come and give you much more of a fight than you were hoping for. Take Capua and the Scipii will be gone.

You could try to keep the city and take out Rome after you built up your army but I prefer to let the city rebel and go back and unite Sicily. Once the island is yours, you can build up and take North Africa where the Scipii usualy go. This makes for an easy way to beat the egys by attacking them from Africa and from all of the north of them from Turkey. It is much easier fighting them on multiple fronts rather than having them send army after army to try and drive you out. But I am getting off of the subject.

On second thought, I think that I will stay off of the subject just a little while longer. When you are fighting phalanxes, they are usualy in the standard line. I find it best to concentrate your attack on the middle units. Have all of your ranged units hitting one unit in the very middle. Have your cav come around back and hit that unit in the rear. This should cause a chain rout. If it doesn't have your cav run back and charge the unit next to the unit you just crippled. Repeat if need be.