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Konnichi-wa again, forumites. A blast from the past in the form of little ol´ me returning to the forums.
It finally came (MI that is) and joy, it was very much modifiable. Now, after a 3-day long binge of about 36 hours´ worth of frenzied web researching and editing (oh and I almost forgot, even some playtesting http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif, I have here the first version of my own mod.
Now, some of you might remember that I was interested in historical accuracy, and that´s what I aimed for, but how well I have done so far I leave for the experts to decide.
Bear in mind that this mod was primarily designed just for my own single player enjoyment and for the hell of it, multiplayer balance is probably totally off.
Without further ado, on to the main points of the mod:
Units altered:
Samurai Archers and Yari Samurai turned into mixed units of Samurai and Ashígaru in name, description and references. This is because such formations were common according to my belief, and certainly Ashigaru Archers were common before the guns and during the transition phase (and they were not totally scrapped even then).
No-Dachi turned into Samurai Swordsmen; a rare weapon, the No-Dachi was mostly used during the Kamakura period, and even then it never became common enough as to replace the standard Samurai with a katana.
Musketeers renamed as "Teppo Ashigaru", they did not have muskets...
Korean Spearmen, Guardsmen and Thunder Bombers made Chinese. There were originally 15 000 koreans and 100 000 Chinese in the second invasion.
Stats:
(melee, defense, armour, morale)
Archers 0, -1, 2, 0
Spearmen:0, 2, 2, 2
(Obviously they are not close to the dedicated samurai melee units)
Naginata;2, 4, 5, 6
They now possess a degree of deadliness their samurai status entails them...
Samurai Swordsmen: 4, 2, 3, 6
Still an offensive unit, but naturally they need defensive abilities too (a katana is good for both, and they are armoured now, too)
Cav Archers : 4, 1, 2, 4 (charge bonus 7)
They are dedicated samurai, and no strangers to melee combat AND are mounted. Still, defending is a bit more tricky since you must protect your horse, too. Armor has been lowered for all cavalry units (from what I hear it´s used for missile fire only).
The charge bonus is up by 4 for all cavalry units.
Heavy cav
4, 4, 3, 7
The strongest unit on the field, very deadly and strong, but vulnerable to spears and missile fire.
Yari Cav:
3, 3, 2, 5
The spears offer a nice charge bonus of 12 and a measure of defense even though the unit is lightly armoured and mounted.
Yari Ashigaru:
-1, 0, 2, -2
Defense improved by one simply because of their weapons and formations. Morale on Ashigaru is up by 2...Still shaky but at least a bit more dependable, making it very worthwhile to use them in masses like they should be.
Monks:
5, -1, 1, 8
These retained the big attack bonus but in exchange lost the defensive one. Their ferociousness and zeal along with them being almost unarmoured do not entail a good defensive rating. Furthermore, I do not believe in them being superior to elite samurai... Their perks are high morale, the shrine and the offensiveness, in essence fills the role of the old No-Dachi...Their speed is up by one too.
Ninja
9, 6, 2, 8
well, if I am playing with 120 men a unit they needed a small ´boost to be competitive...But armor protection against arrows is down.
Kensai
18, 6, 6, 8
Likewise....the realism of these units is in question, but if they´re there, best to make the best of it and enjoy them.
Korean Skirmisher:
-2, 0, 5, -2
These fellows weren´t very dependable.
Chinese Spearmen:
0, 1, 2, 0
Better than ashigaru, but still demoralized...
Chinese Guardsmen:
1, 3, 3, 2
Let´s face it, these guys were nowhere close to their Samurai counterparts...They fight like Naginata now.
Mongol Light Cavalry:
2, 0, 1, 6
Well, they have their hidden bonuses, but really they shouldn´t compare to their Samurai counterparts in fair close combat, not skill-wise or weapon-wise.
They wore a silk shirt for protection against arrows and perhaps furs...combined with the chance for mount hits, they really don´t deserve much protection against arrows besides their speed.
Mongol HC:
4, 2, 3, 7
Let´s assume these are all armoured...and consist of the very best close combat specialists of the mongols.
What I have done what might irritate others was to reduce the gaps between individual warriors considerably, almost halving them for spearmen and teppo...After some tweaking I think it looks good now. This is for me to be able to use the larger units much more neatly and easily. This will probably lead to increased missile casualties, but read on....
On to projectiles:
The biggest change is the range of the arquebus. It is up, and now the improved teppo have a range of 11000, while bows remain at 5000. This caused me over half a day´s researching and pondering, but in the end evidence suggested that when using massed fire against large enemy formations, the weapon had indeed a longer effective killing range than the yumi. In fact, considerably so, and this was the second reason the arquebuses gained popularity.
Now, it is indeed true that when firing índividually at lone targets, the bow was more accurate with a longer range, but that is not what STW simulates imho.
Of course, all my sources can be wrong. Here I need your input.
The penetration dropped a bit, to 10 with arq and 8 with the teppo (imaginary smaller calibre) (yes, they are the same thing, but I mean the different units)
Reload time is up too, they now perform at the quoted 2 shots/minute individually (without volley fire) and the improved teppo perform at 2 1/2 shots a minute.
They carry only 20 shots now, though. Ammunition was scarce, I think.
As for bows, their reload time is up. They now shoot about 12 shots a minute.
The power of the bows is up, too. Archers carry two quivers of 24 arrows into battle, now.
Crossbows: power up to 6, reload time up to teppo level, accy a bit up.
And finally....the mongol composite bow. It truly was a fearsome weapon in the hands of the mongols. The range is now up 9000. This is murderous as it should be. They carry 60 arrows (This I confirmed to be the minimum) andd the rate of fire is faster than that of the japanese, as well as accuracy and power.
The game plays out differently now...the mongols don´t charge in and hack the japanese to pieces, rather they deplete them at long range.... It creates interesting challenges as it should be. However, more testing needs to be done whether this is playable as a human mongol and vs an ai mongol.
It might very well "break" the game, but then again the mongols were nothing but unfair to their opponents.
The range I allocated because the yumi was said to have an effective range of 80 yards while the mongol bow had a range of over 200 yards. Am I mistaken? Input please.
Finally, the ai daimyo personalities were modified to better represent Sengoku warfare: they now favor Ashigaru, muskets and yari and bows, diss cavalry archers and nag cavalry etc etc. according to the personalities of course. This is a very exciting possibility for me, it allows me to play with the mainly ashigaru armies and my opponents will do so too! All this leads to more historicity and much more enjoyment for me imho.
Oh , I did make a separate unit_choice file for mongol campaigns (and the Gempei war for ex).
I´d like to know how to assign different AI personalities to the different clans and daimyos in the campaigns!
Well, writing this post took a while, and now I hope I can get down to some serious Total War next week! However, I am interested in your experts´ opinions too.
Oh, and if anyone wants to try it out (I like some of my new unit descriptions http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
then I´ll be happy to e-mail the files and instructions. I´m not against sharing this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Off to bed now. Gah 4 am. Thanks for reading.
Hopefully I´ll get some nice input so I can update my mod to be more "real".
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excerpt from a competitive mongolian archers web site:
From the time of Chinggis Khan and the Mongolian nation proper, there are many accounts of great feats of archery. In the ‘Blue History’, there is a story of Chuu Mergen who his a target from on horseback at about 130 meters. There are accounts of a national competition in which renowned archers such as Tsülegtii, Gölgön Baataar, Sübgetei Baataar, Toghtong Baataar and Khüldar all competed over a distance of about 600 meters, shooting at a cap of deer leather placed on the ground. All could hit the target with one of three shots.
-- so a best case scenario long distance shoot has been at 600 yards (more or less - too lazy to do the literal conversion) ;-)
the web link is http://www.atarn.org/mongolian/mn_na...n_nat_arch.htm
well worth the read
in addition refer to: http://www.aafla.org/OlympicInformationCenter/OlympicReview/1997/oreXXVI13/oreXXVI13j .pdf
these little suckers knew how to shoot - long range and under combat conditions - far better than any other bowmen before or since. Have a look at the international historical sites on archery and you'll see consistent long distance strikes beyond 520 meteres. They were literally the longbowmen of their time. It would be interesting to see how the French would have faired at Agincourt against the Khans best - a fair bit worse than the flogging that the British longbow archers dished out with their yew bows.
Japanese archers were no match for mongolians, they were pretty lucky that they had a taifun on their side. Otherwise japanese history might have included more than copying calligraphy and the art of "iga" off their neighbours.. ;-)
[This message has been edited by Kabuki-San (edited 10-07-2001).]
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600 meters?? Puhleeeze.
First of all, I would have to see an arrow travel 600 meters to believe it. This is in my opinion laughable.
Second of all, the mere cumulative effect of air resitance and wind over such a long distance would send any arrow-type projectile far, far off course no matter how well it was aimed.
Third of all, it would be literally impossible for a human to pick out a target at that range and hit it with an arrow, even if they were using some sort of godly super-bow and were firing through a vacuum. I'm sorry, but that's just flat-out beyond human capabilities. A GOOD sniper, with a GOOD scope and a modern rifle, will be able to reliably hit a cigarette pack at that range. But a Mongol with a meter-long composite bow? Give me a break..
I personally don't think Kabuki's sources are particularly valid for this type of historical purpose. The first link he provided is to a site of a proud Mongol archer, talking all about the wonders of Mongol archery. The second is to an article written by a Mongol about various old Mongol accounts of legends and epics.
Basically, according to LEGEND Mongols could hit targets at 500-600 meters, just like according to LEGEND some nude dude perched atop mount Olympus named Zeus could chuck lightning down at will..
Matt
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Khan7, agreed, it sounds pretty wild and my mod will definitely give them a range of 35 000 ;
However, a range of a over 200 yards, when firing together against massed enemy (an altogether different thing compared to an individual shooting at an individual) is very believable. Longbowmen performed even better (up to 300 m I believe) with LONGbows.
If the yumi´s range is thought to be 80 m and the mongol bow´s 200 m, a ratio of 5:9 should definitely not be out of proportion.
Anyway, any of you want to try it out but don´t like certain aspects of it, let me know and I´ll remove them just for you, so that you can try the rest of the mod.
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>>Quoted from http://www.student.utwente.nl/campus...w/longbow.html :
"The two current authorities both agree the weapon was much stronger than our present day bows. Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimates the bows of the Medieval period drew between 90 and 110 pounds, maximum. Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believes the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 80 to 90 pounds.
"A bow of the strength described by Stayner and Paterson would project a war arrow a long distance. But here again, no one is sure how far: Stayner believes the war arrow had an effective range of 180 yards; Paterson maintains a slightly further distance of 200 yards; and Bartelot estimates a useful range of 249 yards. Captain George Burnet, Secretary to the Royal Scottish Archers, notes that the members of the Queen's Body Guard for Scotland, who still shoot, use six foot long self yew bows of 55 to 60 pounds draw weight. The range of these modern bows is 180-200 yards shooting light target shafts."
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So as you can see, 300 meters for an English longbow is a bit optimistic, even with light target arrows, and especially with combat arrows-- even with one of the extraordinary bows that are spoken of that may have had a draw weight of 90 or 100 pounds. 200 meters-- sure, if you have all high-quality bows and you are not concerned with hitting anything in particular. In general 150-180 meters sounds about right (to me).
And the Mongols were firing from horseback, so you may want to knock off a couple dozen meters..
So hmm.. a range of 9000 in the game corresponds to a little over 100m real life, so that sounds about right.. if you aren't concerned with game balance.. (?)
Matt
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The musket had a longer range true, but the likelyhood of hitting was so slim. Example, after the Battle of Cannae, General De Saxe inspected the battle field, of the long/medium ranged volly fire 50 men out of the 40,000 plus were killed. The rounded bullet of the musket can take much of the blame for this. Japanesse muskets were not the cream of the crop. European traders would often use inferior material in creation. The Arquebusie was even worse, often exploding in the hand of it's wielder (also due in part to an inferior purchase.)
as for skirmishers, history would bring a new form of "skirmisher." enter warfare of the 2nd world war and on.
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Khan7.... your a dumb ass. The French of the 100 Years war would argue about the 500 yard part. Accuracy is an issue true, but 12000-13000 archers just letting go into an army. If you think this to be an exageration there are several fields that remain today were you can look, and see the range of an English Yew/Ironwood composite longbow in action. So before you cock off, study war. Study it like you would your girlfriends body.
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Hey Hey Morayin, no need to insult people here. We are all friends here and treat each other with respect. So please take that remark about Khan back. This is a place where people comment about things using what they know. It may not be right but still people are free to speak their minds without fear of aggression against them.
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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
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That's okay. If he wants to come on here and broadcast his ignorance and youth for all the world to chuckle at, far be it from me to take offense. Really.
Matt
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Well then Khan i'll just boost my post count no harm there http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Grand Master of
The Knights Templar
"non nobis Domine non nobis sed Nomine tuo da gloriam"
http://www.gifs.net/animate/aniyin.gif
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your mod seems pretty cool...could you post a link?
