Agents traits and retinues

This always bothered me. Never in the history of mankind have I been able to find a bad agent. Be it a diplomat, assassin or spy. I know there are bad traits out there for them but basically the diplomats always are positive and the only time you get an alert for a trait increase is when they hit expert, which happens whether they get what you wanted or not. I think the assassin is legit for trait gains, but the spy is very hard to get traits for imho. I also never figured out how you get a retinue for agents... Im guessing its random unless Im just missing the triggering event.

I was just wondering if you guys fixed this and made it possible for agents to get bad traits.

I've definitely had bad assassins and spies. But they don't tend to live very long. ~D

Bad diplomats are fairly rare, but then someone isn't just pulled off the street to become one usually. I am ok with there being relatively few bad diplomats.

Most of the vanilla retinue triggers for agents involved being in a settlement with a certain building or something like that. It looks like the Catamite and Pet Monkey are most common, at least in my games.

I wrote here that EB's traits and ancillaries are about 25% complete. Agent traits and ancillaries would fall into that 75% incomplete area. I'm definitely open to any suggestions for traits and ancillaries that would be:

1. Historically justifiable
2. Different from what already exists (agents only have 4 stats that can be affected by traits/ancillaries: Movement, Subterfuge/Negotiation, Line of Sight, and Personal Security).

There is a bit I've done in this area, but it's very minor and nothing compared to what I've done for generals/governors.

What about a trait "Knows the right people" which would allow him ot move faster and increase his subderfuge rating as he would be well connected?

That's what I was going to suggest

you could have something along the lines of accomplice
I dont know what you could call it but it could start at something minor and eventually work its way up to noble accomplice...
I feel that that wasn't explained enough so I'll try to say it in a story form. Imagine the family member you want dead is in a city. The assassin could know the inn keeper of the inn that the family member is at, or the guard outside his door, and they could help them get to the target. This way it increases subterfuge.

In response to Teleklos's post: I never had a bad agent... I had an assassin who had 1 subterfuge, he had no chance at killing anything around him, so I sent him after some guy who he had a 12% chance at killing so he'd die and I wouldn't need to bother with him anymore. I tried time after time for 10 turns, my assassin never got any never got a single negative trait. All that happened was the guy gained a personal security trait and the chance went from 12% to 6%. I didn't bother anymore after 10 turns.

A "Well-Connected" trait seems to fit with what I'd eventually like to do with agents (a system similar to what we have with generals, but simplified).

I like the accomplice ancillary. My GAFHMod had a "Disgruntled Insider", which sounds very similar. Most everything that was in the GAFHMod is going to be in EB, only better.

I'd also like to have more variety in the traits for agents, so they're not just measured by what level they are.

I'm happy to hear that an improved version of your GAFH mod will be part of EB!

Trying to help a bit by adding my 2cents....

What would you think of the following lines of development:

for a spy that is moving often and rarely has MPs left from 1 turn to the next:
develop a positive line of traits/ancillaries for "evasiveness" or something similar. Also have a possibility of a negative line of traits/ancillaries "fearful"... basically either he develops to be good at covering his tracks (with help from a network of ancillaries or just by his frequent travel and blending in)
OR he is so afraid of getting caught that he loses his nerve and moves on rather than completing a task...

For a spy that always stays in one place:
develop a positive line of traits/ancillaries "insider"/"adapted to local customs"/"blends in with foreign civilization x" that decreases his chances of being caught
OR a negative line of traits/ancillaries "sympathizerf"/"assimilated" etc.. where he would be MUCH easier to bribe due to identifying too much with the culture he is at

I really like GAFH...
I hope you can do even more with the aging of family members so that their life experiences and age are considerable factors when deciding who to place where. Changing the way family members "work" by having many more of them available, but having wider differences among them, and a life cycle for them, could add lots of new intrigue to the game for me.\

Thanks for the hard work!
ENSAIS

Good suggestions here, thanks!

Off the top of my head, I don't remember if spies/assassins can be bribed. I know diplomats can. Anybody know for sure?

Agents have really been untouched, as far as traits go. This is a wide-open area, and I hope to add some details and more options for them.

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Originally Posted by ENSAIS

Thanks for the hard work!

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I appreciate that. The traits and ancillaries have consumed a lot of my free time, as well as that of many of the other team members. But I think the finished product will be worth it! ~D

Spies and Assassins cannot be bribed. I assume its because you are not exactly going to let people know what the hell you are doing, unlike a diplomat.

Foot

Diplomats could have a bodyguard, who increases their defence against assassination, which rises to 'intimidating bodyguard' who as well as offering increased protection, offers also more influence, due to the intimidating effect he has on people.
I think this would be a nice way to simulate the importance of the threat of force in negotiations.

Personally I think there should be lots of possible ancillaries for diplomats, most of which increase influence. The best diplomats should arrive at foreign courts with a large entourage of musicians, entertainers, scribes, assistants, secretaries, bodyguards and mules loaded with luxuries and treaured items.

The effect this would have would carry much more influence with foreign kings than a single diplomat arriving on a mangey horse, even if he does have a 'way with words' or whatever.

For a diplomat, influence ought to be the ability to persuade a foreign king that it would be advantageous to him to be on good terms with your kingdom and do as you say. Ancillaries would be the most realistic way of demonstrating this.

A 'company of troops' might be another nice ancillary for this, as well as defending against assassination.

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Originally Posted by Malrubius

But I think the finished product will be worth it! ~D

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I'm constantly amazed at the things you are doing with the traits, and I know I've even helped out with a lot of them for the Hellenic and Roman factions. I was getting trait messages last night that I had no idea we could even do. I really do think that this is one of the best sets of wholesale changes that have been made to the mod. But keep adding more!! And get us some good ancillaries in there too! ~D

you could have a trait for assassins and spies along the lines of
careful which adds subterfuge but you could have another trait called paranoid that an assassin or spy could get randomly which could be the counter trait.
the paranoid trait is something along the lines of the agent being terrified of making a mistake or being caught during a mission, or seeing enemies everywhere.

I think there might be a paranoid trait for family members already... If there isn't, this could work for them as they are repeatedly attacked by assassins. Maybe plus 2 personal security but minus influence because they're untrusting towards everyone.

Also you could give agents the blackmailer trait

Yes, there is a Paranoid trait for family members. Attempting to assassinate them, even if the assassin fails, causes the enemy generals to pick up all sorts of bad traits.

That's from vanilla RTW.

One good thing about the traits is that, so far (knock on wood), I have found no hard-coded limits on how many traits can be created, and EB has a few new ones. The possible things that can be done with traits seem to pretty much be limited by the availability of events or conditions to tie them to, and your own imagination. ~D

Another trait could be, if a diplomat remains in a specific country/empire for too long that he gets to know that nation's language, thus making a better impression on the Nobles/king of that nation (it's one thing talking through a translator and another to talk in the King's own language).

Also i was always wondering why not have spies help diplomats? I doubt if it was incorporated in the game, and i don't know if you could do it in a mod... but say before a diplomat goes to talk to someone or to a town, you send a spy to investigate the person or the town, therefore increasing the chances for your diplomat to achieve what you want. Besides... Information is power. That also is true for assassins. If you have a spy close by the target, itshould be easier for your assassin to get the job done.

Also there could be traits for agents like, ex-military man, which would raise his chances when the target is of military nature, or alternatively he knows his way around the courts, which would make him ideal for cities. That way you could have an agent for specific missions (an assassin who specializes in Diplomats, or a diplomat ideal for bribing armies etc. )

I'm all out for the moment...

One must, of course, is making agents vastly faster with a hidden trait, as in the CVP, but I'm taking that for a given.

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Originally Posted by alx1078

Another trait could be, if a diplomat remains in a specific country/empire for too long that he gets to know that nation's language, thus making a better impression on the Nobles/king of that nation (it's one thing talking through a translator and another to talk in the King's own language).

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Unfortunately, Negotiation cannot be increased relative to a given faction or culture, unlike Command.

-Simetrical

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Originally Posted by Simetrical

One must, of course, is making agents vastly faster with a hidden trait, as in the CVP, but I'm taking that for a given.

-Simetrical

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Yes, the CVP is the foundation of the EB traits system, and it includes the CVP's boosted movement for agents.