Pope re-emergence

How often does il popina come back? I'm playing the Byzantines in GA mode, and have decided to take out the Pope as a matter of religious principle, and he's now come back twice within 3 years. I tackled his army of 3000-odd no probs (91 casualties ~:cheers: ), but if im going to have to fight a huge battle every few years, against progressively harder and harder troops, it could become a bit of a pain. He's come back both times now in Rome, which is 100% Orthodox, so it can't be popular opinion bringing the old coot back.

The Pope is hardcoded into the game. He will always come back, sometimes with really scary armies...

A lot of the guys here find that it's best to leave him with a province to sit in. I get sick of fighting the Papal panzer division with my poor old feudal knights every 3 years...

i usually leave him stranded in sicily :)

treat it like an arcade game and see how many popes you can kill in a row.

Lol

I know what you mean about the Pope!! :furious3:

Yea, leaving him be soemwhere weak, maybe occasionally pushing him into a castle to keep his troops low (or maybe leaving him in debt with more expensive troops than he has income, which has a good chance of happening seeing how many knights he can come back with, is the best policy.

Ahhh but I've made it my personal mission to subvert the Catholic faith and put Orthodoxy back on the map! Ah well, guess ill have to beat his ass then...

Yes, kill the heretic false prophet, and flood his lands with Orthodox bishops.

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Originally Posted by Roark

Yes, kill the heretic false prophet, and flood his lands with Orthodox bishops.

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Recently started from scratch with Byz/Early/Normal and I still (1137) hold Naples. Pope was keen on pumping bishops into it but I turned a blind eye until his first inquisitor arrived. I didn't think he could fry Orthodox generals, so I wasn't worried about that but was so about the potential for their preaching abilites. However, this was perfectly timed for my first assassins coming online. His bishops and Inq were all no-star and perfect training targets. So far, I've bagged 3 of each ~D I forget what they cost to make, so I hope his mounting expenses discourage him from building too many more. Production does seem to have halted for the time being. ~;)

Presumably, bishops rack up faith levels more effectively than priests? I don't have a Cathedral yet (plenty other things I need to build before I take a 16 year time-out) and can't hope to compete, without resorting to the assassinations. Moving three priests to there allowed me to just about tread water and claw back the odd percent against the last remaining bishop.

After I got the port up and running, Naples became a magnet for assassin targets and I've found a near-infallible method of zapping them without that annoying thing where the AI detects the attack and whizzes the target off to a port elsewhere, usually with a BF, which then captures your assassin, who dumbly followed them.

This basically entails the assassin being issued his orders whilst located in another of my port provinces. He 'parachutes in', so to speak, makes his kill and the AI doesn't see it coming. The following year, in spite of being surrounded with equally juicy targets, I move him out of Naples again, so it's a two-year cycle. It's when you issue an order against an agent in the same province as them on that turn, that the AI responds and your agent follows.

An additional factor is that Naples has its own border forts, so the AI probably feels its agents are 'safe' there. The system probably only works because I'm moving my agents into one of my own territories to make their attacks.

I'm rather looking forward to flooding Papal territories with my own bishops and see how he likes it. It's not a GA campaign but I ought to set a target date on completion of this cathedral anyway. A bit of role-playing adds to the entertainment factor and shuffling agents around gives me something to to do in the quieter years when I'm busy building rather than battling.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Presumably, bishops rack up faith levels more effectively than priests? I don't have a Cathedral yet (plenty other things I need to build before I take a 16 year time-out) and can't hope to compete, without resorting to the assassinations. Moving three priests to there allowed me to just about tread water and claw back the odd percent against the last remaining bishop.

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Orthodox priests and Catholic bishops are of the same tech level so presumably they have the same effect on faith. Orthodox bishops are the equivalent of Catholic cardinals. I assume this is because the orthodox church does not have a rank equivalent to cardinal.

Your assassination tactic sounds interesting. I will try it when I play M:TW again.

Ah, assasins... There´s much truth to the proverb "a single knife might achieve more than a thousand swords".
I´ll have to keep this technique in mind in case I´m in need of land so unconveniently inhabited by Catholic factions and the pope being far too long-lived to be comfortable.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Orthodox priests and Catholic bishops are of the same tech level so presumably they have the same effect on faith. Orthodox bishops are the equivalent of Catholic cardinals. I assume this is because the orthodox church does not have a rank equivalent to cardinal.

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Thanks for that clarification.
I think I got the misperception from the way that, as a Cath faction, priest level is the first stage, after building a church, so I assumed Bishop was somehow more powerful. I've never yet completed a campaign as either type and generally found I could never spare the build time for cathedral, so I never got to see the effectiveness of bishops for myself.

Of course another factor I should have considered is inter-province faith 'leakage' resulting from faith buildings themselves. What with a Catholic church, cathedral and monastery in the next door province(s), I'm going to have to expect Naples to convert against me in the long run.

At the moment, what with a growing Sicilian army on the doorstep and no path of retreat, I'm reluctant to splash out 1000 on Naples for a keep-level castle, then a church, when I've core-territory provinces which need keep upgrades - and beyond - a.s.a.p., to get me my specialist unit types.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Your assassination tactic sounds interesting. I will try it when I play M:TW again.

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Here's hoping you have similar level of success.

I forgot to mention that I have managed to lose a pair of 0-star assassins using this same technique but that was just bad luck (hit probability of 86% and they still died), not my own BF's 'catching' them!
By shuttling between Naples and my other ports, I got another pair up to 3-stars each. When they get to 4-star, I may let them stray into enemy territory or even leave them to do attacks on AI-autopilot (where you let them find their own route).

My other tactic is to only order an attack when the target agent is on home soil but there is no port in that province, so their only escape is over land. I will abort the chase if the target does reach a port.

Annoying things can happen though - for example, target Emissary is in Trebizond (no port), description says he's on a mission to get alliance with the Pope, so he's a priority hit. The assassin in Constantinople when instructed. On the following turn, they've swapped places. Normally, when the target moves into the province where the Assassin is coming at them from, they get killed. I don't know if the Em's active mission status made a difference or if he was a 2-star (I'm sure it was a zero) and somehow eluded my 3-star ~:confused:

The target running away syndrome can be exploited to some extent. When they and the assassin are in the same province (no port) when you issue the order, often on the next turn, the target has moved but your assassin is still where he was (strange, but true). No kill but still 'job done', in the sense that the spying has been curtailed. Just remember to cancel the mission at this point, in case allowing him to go off and chase will only get him caught by enemy BFs.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Annoying things can happen though - for example, target Emissary is in Trebizond (no port), description says he's on a mission to get alliance with the Pope, so he's a priority hit. The assassin in Constantinople when instructed. On the following turn, they've swapped places. Normally, when the target moves into the province where the Assassin is coming at them from, they get killed.

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I wonder if it would have made a difference if you had first placed the assassin piece in Tebizond and then ordered the assassination. The assassin piece will then stay in Trebizond but will take up the 'mission' posture. Perhaps the program then thinks that the assassin is in Trebizond, so that the he can make an attempt at the emissaries live. I have tried the reverse a couple of times, but it didn't seem to make a difference.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

I don't know if the Em's active mission status made a difference or if he was a 2-star (I'm sure it was a zero) and somehow eluded my 3-star ~:confused:

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I don't think that higher level emisaries have a higher chance of avoiding attack: they already stand a better chance of surviving when the attack takes place, so this would make it extremely difficult to hit hard targets like high level emissaries or inquisitors. There is an escape-mechanism for fleets, but they have a speed stat for this which agents don't, as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by Ludens

I wonder if it would have made a difference if you had first placed the assassin piece in Tebizond and then ordered the assassination. The assassin piece will then stay in Trebizond but will take up the 'mission' posture. Perhaps the program then thinks that the assassin is in Trebizond, so that the he can make an attempt at the emissaries live. I have tried the reverse a couple of times, but it didn't seem to make a difference.

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I hadn't thought of trying that but will give it a go, next time the opportunity arises.

I think the key to it all is whether the target is genuinely travelling from place to place or if they are remaining stationary, like the proverbial sitting-duck.

I make a point of keeping mine permanently on the move, with regular trips back to a friendly territory with BF's, just in case they are being tracked. It slows down the rate at which I can gather information but I'm generally not in a hurry anyway and it avoids the need to interrupt troop production for a year, in getting a replacement.