Problem w/ Wall Take Overs?

I am playing the bruti on H/H and decided to take out my first stone walled city. The problem was when my units (principles) faced off with other units on the wall. As soon as anybody on the other faction touches one of my units its insta fight to the death. Resulting in my principles getting masacred by Peltasts, (i lost 500 men in the battle, and ran out of time GRRRR :furious3: )

Is this normal? last time i played R:TW was before the patches, and this is my first time ive played with 1.2 due to my old computer recieving a (its not a surge just the opposite?) and my morther board being fried along with processer etc.

I think that units fighting on a wall automatically fight to the death (where can they run to, after all?)

What works best for me is a combination of attrition attacks before my guys get up the walls, and then overpowering force once they get there.

Use ballistae (if you have them) to take out the towers at the gate first, so they'll stop shooting at your approaching forces. If you have ammo left after that, use them on the wall defenders to reduce their numbers. Then whittle them down some more with archers as your ladders and/or seige towers are approaching the walls.

Use as many ladders and/or towers as you can. Attack at multiple points so you can sandwich enemy units between two of your own attacking units. Even though the enemy will be fighting to the death, they don't last long when being suddenly hit in the back by a second unit. Be sure to put your Hastati on "fire at will" mode so they'll hurl their ranged weapons during combat and then go back to swords. That can make a big difference when the enemy is bunched up like that along the wall.

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Originally Posted by Marcellus

I think that units fighting on a wall automatically fight to the death (where can they run to, after all?)

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They don't automatically get fighting to the death when they hit hte walls, it's when their moral breaks on a wall that they get fighting to the death.

Does having it set at hard battles put a moral penalty on? If so your guys may just be insta-breaking as soon as they hit the wall. This is why I don't like difficulty settings that are created by just buffing up the AI stats and crippling your stats. It's sloppy design.

Don't fight on the walls, it's worse than doing bridge battles. Use 2 onagers to take out the towers and make a couple holes in the walls (multiple holes will let you flank the defenders). You can usually take the center and get you defences sorted by the time the AI pulls it's other units off the walls to fight you. You only have to keep the enemy out of it for 3 minutes.

Onagers are also good for taking out the walls where the enemy units are. If the AI is too slow or you have enough onagers on the job, you can get the wall destroyed under them which will kill most of the unit.

Also, don't go in near the front gate. The AI will usually have it's main defences setup there.

I shall modify Murmandamus' statement: Don't fight on the walls unless you have at superiority at least in numbers in infantry to the defender, preferably with superiority thrown in, and unless you can afford to lose the infantry.

yeah, im finding out that hard doesnt improve anything but the AIs stats, hm i usually just put it on auto resolve most of the time.

Also on the hard mode those flaxman are pretty tough, i flanked the flaxman with my equities, while triarii where penning then down :duel: , what happened my entire force routed when one cavarly unit managed too break through my center witch was instantly holed up with my general, my general got scared (i think its in his stats though,) ran away, with the rest of my forces got scared too, even the ones which where all bythemselves and had the flaxman flanked...grrr


I thought the AI stats would improve, not my own stats get lowered....bleh

I like the challenge of taking the walls, so I wouldn't say it's a "do" or "don't" thing... just personal style. If you get enough men up there, after the main gate you can send them to capture the adjoining towers, so you don't get shot in the back if you're moving troops around the perimeter of a city. But yeah... you do need overwhelming force, and some attacks with ranged weapons beforehand.

If I'm in a hurry, I'll flood the city with spies so I can come in from multiple directions with open gates. Lots of ways to do it, makes it interesting.

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Originally Posted by dgb

They don't automatically get fighting to the death when they hit hte walls, it's when their moral breaks on a wall that they get fighting to the death.

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Ah yes, of course. Thanks for pointing that out. ~:)

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Originally Posted by dgb

Does having it set at hard battles put a moral penalty on? If so your guys may just be insta-breaking as soon as they hit the wall. This is why I don't like difficulty settings that are created by just buffing up the AI stats and crippling your stats. It's sloppy design.

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AFAIK there's no moral penalty on harder settings. The AI's stats are not even superior to yours since 'hard' and 'very hard' settings simply beef up the attack stats of all units by +4 and +7 respectively...the enemy's as well as your own! This does nothing else than speed up battles considerably; as a consequence, a unit may find itself in a desparate situation much sooner than on 'medium' and all the more on walls where attackers are easily outnumbered (due to half of them still climbing up the siege tower). That's the best explanation I have to offer for such occurences.

EDIT: There seems to be a morale BONUS for AI units on harder battle settings though.

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Originally Posted by Enjoi_BlackHawk

I am playing the bruti on H/H and decided to take out my first stone walled city. The problem was when my units (principles) faced off with other units on the wall. As soon as anybody on the other faction touches one of my units its insta fight to the death. Resulting in my principles getting masacred by Peltasts, (i lost 500 men in the battle, and ran out of time GRRRR :furious3: )

Is this normal? last time i played R:TW was before the patches, and this is my first time ive played with 1.2 due to my old computer recieving a (its not a surge just the opposite?) and my morther board being fried along with processer etc.

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From Celt Centurion,

For starters, I avoid trying to take the walls early on. If you have the patience;

1. Send in a spy. He will tell you what is in there, AND will stir up "discontented souls" in the city.

2. lay siege to the city. Start with one sapping point, and build about 6 towers. Depending on the number of men you have, this will take at least two, and probably more turns for fewer men.

3. Then wait. The discontented souls will kill off their soldiers, while yours enjoy their camps. On larger cities which will wait 10 or so turns before surrendering, their army will attirition down to about 40% of what it was. It may also be advisable to have a second army close by not laying siege which you can use to attack any enemy army coming close. Sometimes, a tiny army will "ring your shield" and in so doing, drag the entire army out of the city to fight you as well. You want to get rid of these guys before they are close enough to draw the city's garrison out as reinforcements.

4. If you wait long enough, the city may surrender, and you take it without loss of lives of your own troops. If they come charging out, it's usually when they are down to 50% or less except in the cases where you use a two unit army to besiege a city with 20. Not advised.

5. If you feel you must storm the walls, perhaps because a full 20 unit army is 1.25 turns from attacking your besiegeing army, and you do not have a second one to send after it, then either withdraw or assault.

6. As I said earlier, a sapping point and 6 towers (minimum you may make more if you wish over a ten turn wait). I prefer my archers not pulling towers. They are much better at defending against enemies who choose to charge out, but, I do have archer units directly behind a tower out of range of the walls.

I have a unit ready to go into the sap point, but if enough of my towers survive their arrows, I don't even use it. That saves me the cost of repairing the wall when the city becomes mine.

Once the battle is joined, and my heavy infantry have taken the enemy towers immediately around the siege tower, I bring my archers on up. They come in quite handy to shoot the enemy soldiers on the ground inside the wall. I also try to have a light infantry at each end of my lines to literally run through all of the towers, all the way around the perimeter of the walls while the rest of the battle is in progress. This opens ALL the gates to my cavalry, and it gets the towers shooting at enemy troops wherever they are close enough. It also locks out any enemy troops who have gone outside of the walls. It's funny to watch them try to find a way back in when you control all of the gates! This also ties into not using the sap point if it's avoidable. Enemy troops outside the walls stay outside the walls if you control the gates and have not blown a hole in the wall. Use the sapping point, and they can use it too.

By the same token, one time, I was defending a city, and my infantry reinforcements found the enemy tower closer than my gate. I sent them up the enemy's siege tower, and their men found themselves having to fight both the men I had on the wall, as well as the ones who came up behind them on their tower.

Patience makes it a lot easier.

Celt Centurion

Like it. Tower as sieger sandwich. Much fun.

hm thanks for all the hints ~:cheers:

Good tips Celt but for those who like a lightning expansion and attack strategy, waiting 10 turns per city isn't going to settle very well.

Personally for wooden walls I use 1 or 2 Battering Rams, or Elephants if I can get them which are even better. By using your ranged units by carefully controlled fire you can force any enemy units guarding gaps made by your ram(s) to fall back. When they do, run in and secure... the rest is just going thru the motions.

For Stone Walls I favor 1 or 2 Siege Towers if they have a dominant force of infantry troops. If they are mainly cavalry then I favor several Ladders. If I am predominantly cavalry then I favor 1 or 2 Sap Points.

In the first case where they have a good bit of infantry. Taking the Wall Towers is always an extremely vital step. Those Towers can decimate your forces if you're not careful, and they can decimate the enemy to your great pleasure. I usually send two units of some kind of skirmishing, or other fast infantry up and send them running around in opposite directions. If you move your Siege Towers smartly, usually you will be able to land in a spot where there are no troops directly in front of it. They'll only move toward the spot after your first men jump out onto the wall. So if you send one group of heavy infantry towards the enemy and your light infantry scamper off to capture Towers, you'll be good. (Yes, you can load multiple units in the Siege Tower at the same time) If you've got the superiour heavy infantry than this will be easy enough.

Of course always rake the walls with any long range archers you may have. Ballistas don't work well because the direct line of fire usually hits the crenallations. Catapults don't work well because they're inaccurate, although if you can collapse the wall under them they'll take very heavy casualties. Regular range archers shouldn't be used unless the enemy has none. If you get in a missile battle you'll get an entire unit killed for maybe 10 to 15 of the enemy, not worth it. Slingers aren't much good at all for this, their range is about the same as the Towers, too dangerous. Once you've taken the towers then you can send a cavalry group, or infantry if you must, in thru an alternate gate. As soon as there are men inside the city, the defenders on the wall will climb down to regroup at the city center. (Getting shot by your new Towers on the way) Either ride them down as they're divided or let them so you can set up for a decisive engagement. It's all status quo battling from here.

If they're mostly cavalry then they can't guard their walls. (horses don't do well on twisty tower steps - lol) So then Ladders are much quicker, use them! Capture the towers, wait for them to get slaughtered trying to guard whichever gate you want to use, then move in and secure. Normal tactics from here.

If you're mostly cavalry then use sap points, so you can charge in. This is the most difficult because you won't have the Towers supporting you. The tactic here is to send several forces of your heaviest cavalry charging in. Don't worry about destroying the breach guarding troops, you just have to be strong enough to break through them and to overwhelm the normal one unit in the center. Break thru, go and kill the unit in the center. Then hold a city street as the enemy streams back to defend their center. As they leave the breech for the center, send in the rest of your forces onto their rear. Easy nuff.

Battering Rams should never be used on Stone Walls. You are asking for death. Spies are even better than Siege Towers for strong infantry defenders. Since the Spy opens the gates, you bypass those heavies on the wall completely, run to the nearest clear Tower, move up onto the wall and proceed to capture the Towers as normal. You'll still take some casualties from boiling oil, but not as bad as fighting to clear the wall.

Finally those engagement where reinforcements come up and the defenders sally out to meet me are one of my most looked forward to situations. As long as you destroy the enemy armies completely, (you should) then you get the city automatically. Perfect! A chance to destroy the garrison without Walls and Towers and narrow city streets and unbreakable morale giving City Centers!

It sounds like we have a quite similar idea. Another thing which I like to do is send some archers up on the walls.

I got caught in a situation last night where my only foot units were spearmen. Great on the ground, but with decreased life expectancy when Pharaoh's Bowmen show up and start shooting up at them. Fortunately, I had two other groups of spearmen nearby on the ground, and sent them to save the others up on the wall by putting them into "standard formation", running them to the archers, and turned them loose. My men on the wall had about 40% casualties, but the other two groups of spearmen made quick work of the archers when I left them alone to do it. It seems that my new towers just did not shoot as fast as Pharaoh's Bowmen.

I totally agree on the battering rams against stone walls. As I said, when I have a long (or wide) line of siege towers, the enemy cannot concentrate on just one or two. Use two and probably lose one, and maybe both, or use 6-10 and not use any. They only cost build points, so it doesn't dig into your cash. With my own archers on the walls while my heavy infantry and cavalry make for the town square, my archers and new towers make quick work of any enemy infantry or archers who try to retake a gate from me, as happened last night. Unfortunately, when I took that place, I had 9 groups of spearmen, and six of cavalry, and no archers. I learned even more just last night!

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

Very true Celt. More siege equipment is always better. I just prefer to attack after only a one turn wait or at most two turns. But if you've got a large army, by all means, build as much equipment as you can. On a related note some may be wondering why a person shouldn't just bring a couple Onagers along. The answer is that while Onagers can be quite useful, they take a bit of teching up to get them. When you can get them however they'll come in handy. Even though they slow your armies Movement Points, the ability to attack instantly offsets that. In addition they provide a useful extra level to field engagements. (Onagers outrange archers by a good bit) A good buy for any general!

Your post leads me to another point as well. Never attempt to attack a unit on the ground with a melee unit you have on the wall. Your men will straggle out slowly in ones and twos, run around seemingly randomly while they attempt to form up, etc... In short even if your troops are significantly better you will be massacred. If you need to get off the wall, you must first find a clear area where your men can get down and form up at their leisure. Also, when attempting to move thru city streets, change your formation to the approximant width of the street. This will help to ensure that they avoid those frustrating tendencies to face odd directions of their own volition or run in what seems to be a random direction before following an order to move somewhere, etc...

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Originally Posted by SMZ

Very true Celt. More siege equipment is always better. I just prefer to attack after only a one turn wait or at most two turns. But if you've got a large army, by all means, build as much equipment as you can. On a related note some may be wondering why a person shouldn't just bring a couple Onagers along. The answer is that while Onagers can be quite useful, they take a bit of teching up to get them. When you can get them however they'll come in handy. Even though they slow your armies Movement Points, the ability to attack instantly offsets that. In addition they provide a useful extra level to field engagements. (Onagers outrange archers by a good bit) A good buy for any general!

Your post leads me to another point as well. Never attempt to attack a unit on the ground with a melee unit you have on the wall. Your men will straggle out slowly in ones and twos, run around seemingly randomly while they attempt to form up, etc... In short even if your troops are significantly better you will be massacred. If you need to get off the wall, you must first find a clear area where your men can get down and form up at their leisure. Also, when attempting to move thru city streets, change your formation to the approximant width of the street. This will help to ensure that they avoid those frustrating tendencies to face odd directions of their own volition or run in what seems to be a random direction before following an order to move somewhere, etc...

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That's for sure SMZ. When I saw the bad situation I was in, I tried to pull my spearmen away from Pharaoh's Bowmen, and engaged with the ones on the ground. Coming down from a wall anywhere near enemy bowmen, the bowmen shoot you down faster than they can come out.

I am going to have to learn to change the formation so that they go the approximate width of the street.

I have also noticed that when I send them running through to capture towers, soon they are in a long single file line often running the entire length of the wall, and some of them are still climbing the tower, but it sure helps to have those towers on your own side.

Strength and Honor