Mc Carthyism another lie by the left.

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I have permission to send you this excellent essay by Phil Brennan:





Forget Hell! Joe McCarthy was Right - and the Left was Viciously Wrong



We both read the same piece in the New York Times Sunday Magazine. But Jude Wanniski, with whom I almost always agree, had a different slant than I had on the story: The Rehabilitation of Sen. Joe McCarthy.



That piece, a reasonably even-handed treatment of the latest revelations about the extent of Soviet espionage and penetration of U.S. institutions, makes clear that the remnants of the left wing anti-anti communist movement are very uncomfortable with the obvious conclusion that must be drawn from the revelation that many of those who liberals believed were victims of alleged McCarthyite smears were Soviet agents after all.



Jude thinks that the time may be here to begin to forgive and forget -- and he cites personal reasons for so believing that I find hard to dispute. His approach is fully in line with the Lord's admonition to avoid judging others -- to forgive our enemies a limitless number of times. I see it differently. I am aware that I am bound by the Catholic faith we both share to look for the plank in my own eye before looking for the specks in the eyes of others, and I know that I am also bound to offer forgiveness to those who offend me. BUT, as much as I am aware that I have huge planks blurring my own vision, I am also aware that forgiveness requires remorse from the putative forgivee -- and I find precious little of that from those who savaged McCarthy, J. Edgar Hoover, and scores of others who dared to expose a real menace in our midst.



The Times' story narrows it's focus to Soviet spying by such darlings of the left as Alger Hiss and Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. It fails utterly to address the even more serious issue of Soviet penetration of American institutions -- and the influence that the Soviets were able to exert over those institutions. For example, the presence of Alger Hiss at Roosevelt's elbow at the Yalta conference where a dying FDR acceded to the surrender of Eastern Europe to Joseph Stalin. Hiss's influence at Yalta was far deadlier than the secrets he fed to his GRU (Soviet Military Intelligence) handlers. And that was just one instance of the influence; he and other secret Soviet agents were able to exert over U.S. policy.



Jude admits that Joe McCarthy, like all of us, was a flawed human being, and quotes Bill Buckley along the same lines. Bill cedes the fact that on many occasions Joe simply was out of line. But the thrust of his campaign against Soviet stooges among us was right on target most of the time.



I refuse to simply close the books on the so-called McCarthy era because the excesses of the far-left against anti-communists were forerunners of the excesses of the liberals of the present day. They smeared their foes, lied about them, and created a whole slew of myths that remain current to this day. And they continue to use the same tactic; take for example the disgraceful behavior of the liberal Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee impeachment hearings or Senate Democrats who stymied the Thompson Committee investigation into Chinese espionage and their illegal campaign contributions to the Democrats and Clinton/Gore.



Let's start with the phrase McCarthyism -- a slander the left simply loves to hang around the necks of anybody who happens to disagree with them and tries to counter their deadly influence over American life. Do any of those who throw the word around have the faintest idea of where that word was coined? Are they aware that it was hatched in the bowels of number 3, Dzherzinsky Square -- headquarters of the KGB in Moscow? Or that it was first used in the columns of the communist newspaper, the Daily Worker before the left wing media and their liberal allies eagerly picked it up for use against anti-communists, thereby doing exactly what the Soviets expected them to do?



Then there's the matter of the source of many of Joe's accusations -- accusations being proved today by release of the so-called Venona Intercepts -- of Soviet cable traffic whose code was broken back in the mid-forties and remained top secret until recently. These intercepted cables proved that there were over 350 Americans spying for the Soviets, and enabled investigators to identify about half of them. Joe McCarthy had access to the information contained in the top secret Venona intercepts -- access given him by J. Edgar Hoover and others concerned with the extent of Soviet espionage and penetration -- but he could not defend himself against charges of recklessly accusing people of being Soviet agents by revealing the source of his information without alerting the Soviets that some of their most important secrets were known to U.S. intelligence.



We hear much about the plight of the so-called victims of McCarthyism -- an alleged army of people unfairly targeted by the Wisconsin Senator. Gallons of tears are shed over Hollywood actors, writers and others working in films. The so-called blacklist that allegedly kept innocent people from working in Hollywood (despite the fact that their left-wing friends continued to use many of these identified members of the Soviet led American communist party -- lately revealed as totally an instrument of the Soviet Union -- while concealing their assistance).



There are a couple of things wrong with this story. First, these people were not what they are called today -- victims of McCarthyism. Joe had nothing to do with the Hollywood hearings which cited the communist membership of those accused -- they were solely the work of the House UnAmerican Activities Committee. And the so-called victims were members of the Soviet-dominated U.S. Communist party.



Secondly, the real blacklist was composed of anti-communists -- famous and not so famous actors and directors who could not find work because of their anti-communist activities. People like Adolph Menjou, Ward Bond, Bruce Cabot -- all members of John Wayne's anti-communist Motion Picture Alliance. Wayne courageously stood up for these people -- and you can see most of them in reruns of countless Wayne films. He used them over and over, keeping them working when nobody else would hire them. They were the real victims of the real blacklist.



The viciousness directed at conservatives and anti-communists by the left during the í40s and í50s is displayed today against pro-lifers, religious conservatives and all others opposed to the socialist agenda that liberals seek to impose on America. And the socialism that they espouse is every bit as coercive as the Soviet communist system with which they could find no wrong in the days of Joe McCarthy. Communism, after all, was described simply as "socialism in a hurry."



The heirs of the people who could tolerate Stalin's murderous regime which slew people by the millions are the people who find it easy to tolerate the horror of partial birth abortion -- and the sale of the body parts of the tiny victims of this holocaust. And they employ the same smear tactics and lies against pro-lifers that their forerunners used against McCarthy, Hoover and their fellow anti-communists.



Moreover, the left today perpetuates their lies and myths. The smear tactics used by the Soviets to discredit J. Edgar Hoover by falsely charging that he was a cross-dressing sexual deviant are taken as fact by the media despite the fact that it has been revealed that the charges -- utterly unproven and absurd -- originated in the KGB's disinformation shop.



Does anybody really believe that the most famous cop in America -- a man almost paranoid about maintaining his privacy, as well as being a target for every red and crook in the nation, could show up at parties dressed as a woman and not have the fact explode in headlines within hours? C'mon, give me a break!



These are a few of the reasons why I simply refuse to forgive and forget -- these people and their heirs are still at it. When they repent, I'll forgive.

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Heres more

LINK

Joseph McCarthy was not a subtle or even a pleasant man, but I do think he did a service to the United States by bringing into the light the threat of Communist infiltration. Some of his tactics were a little over the top, but he is nowhere close to being the bogeyman the left portrays him as. And in point of fact he was largely correct in his assessment of a Communist conspiracy in the US government, and the threat that such agents posed to the United States.

The defection of Igor Gouzenko, a code clerk in the Soviet embassy in Ottawa, in early September, 1945 alerted Canada and the US to the dangers of Soviet agents, and helped to roll up some of their spy network's in Canada (22 communist agents). Sen. Joseph McCarthy brought the inaction of the American government on this issue to the forefront.

The collapse of Communism opened files of not only internal Soviet spy documents but also gave the FBI, CIA, and American scholars access to the files of the American Communist Party that had been hidden in a Russian warehouse since 1950.

High level spies within the United States government;

Alger Hiss who had been the number three man at State behind Dean Acheson and Dean Rusk, and who, most assuredly, at some point, would have eventually been Secretary of State.

Harry Dexter White, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, who purposely withheld allocated funding for the Chinese Nationalists, during their Civil War, that destroyed their currency and, thus, their efforts against Mao's Communists.

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg had been conduits for even more damaging information than the atom bomb, for which they were executed.

Lauchlin Currie, Special Assistant to F.D.R. Samuel Dickstein, member of the House of Representatives from Brooklyn.

William and Martha Dodd, son and daughter of the U.S. ambassador to Germany in the 1930's.

Lawrence Duggan, State Department Director of Latin American Affairs.

Harold Ickes, Sr., father of Clinton's impeachment flack, who was Secretary of the Interior.

William Weisband, U.S. Army Signal Security Agency.

Klaus Fuchs and Ted Hall, Soviet agents at Los Alamos

Robert Oppenheimer, the Director of the Atom Bomb Project at Los Alamos, New Mexico denied ever being a member of the Communist Party, but evidence seems to suggest that he may well have been.

His wife was. His brother was. His mistress was. As were many of his closest associates at the University of California. In addition, Oppenheimer was one of those scientists in the 40's who thought that all scientific information should be shared universally for the good of mankind.

On this basis alone the idea that he should not have been deprived of his security clearance doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Gregory Kheifetz was operating under cover as Soviet vice consul in San Francisco from late 1941 to the summer of 1944. He claims to have recruited Oppenheimer. Gregg Herken points out that this may have been an attempt by Kheifetz "to avoid execution for failure to perform while he was the NKVD’s main spy in the Bay area.”

Or it may not. Kheifetz was cleared of the charges against him, promoted and given a medal. He was chief of section of Department S, atomic espionage, until he fell victim to the anti-semitic purge of 1947. It would seem that Oppenheimer was never formally recruited as a Soviet agent which they tried to do in 1944. Prior to this he may have just been a "friend of the Soviet Union".

The Merkulov letter to Beria raises the question of whether Robert Oppenheimer was a spy for the Soviet Union during the wartime period when he directed the Manhattan project.
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Letter from Boris Merkulov to Lavrenty Beria

Letter from Boris Merkulov (USSR People’s Commissar for State Security) to Lavrenty Beria (USSR People’s Commissar for Internal Affairs), 2 October 1944

2 October 4 [1944] TOP SECRET
1107/M URGENT
Copy # 2

PEOPLE’S COMMISSAR FOR INTERNAL AFFAIRS OF THE USSR
GENERAL COMMISSAR OF STATE SECURITY

Comrade BERIA, L.P.

In accordance with your instruction of 29 September 1944, NKGB USSR continues measures for obtaining more detailed information on the state of work on the [problem of uranium] [handwritten] and its development abroad.
In the period 1942-1943 important data on the start of work in the [USA] [handwritten] on this problem was received from our foreign agent network using the contacts of Comrade Zarubin and Kheifitz in their execution of important tasks in line with the executive committee of the Comintern.
In 1942 one of the leaders of scientific work on [uranium] in the USA, Professor Oppenheimer while being an unlisted (nglastny) member of the apparat of Comrade Browder] [handwritten] informed us about the beginning of work.
On the request of Comrade Kheifitz, confirmed by [Comrade Browder,] [handwritten] he provided cooperation in access to research for several of our tested sources including a relative of [Comrade Browder] [handwritten].
Due to complications of the operational situation in the [USA,] [handwritten] dissolution of the [Comintern] [handwritten] and explanations of Comrades Zarubin and Kheifitz on the Mironov affair it is expedient to immediately sever contacts of leaders and activists of the [American Communist Party] [handwritten] with scientists and specialists engaged in work on [uranium.] [handwritten]

NKGB requests the consent of the leadership [Instancia].

PEOPLE’S COMMISSAR OF STATE SECRUITY USSR
Commissar of State Security First Rank
Signed/ MERKULOV


Handwritten note by Beria “Correct”. 2October 1944


Printer—3 copies
No.1 Comrade Beria
No.2 Sec. NKGB
No.3 Dept. NKGB

[Ed. Note: On page 1, signed acknowledgement of L. Beria “Received” signed by Merkulov on 3 October 1944 .
The original document was typed with blank underlined sections. The missing information was written in later by hand. This security measure made sensitive information available only to “need to know “ officials and was a standard Soviet security practice.]
-----------------------------------

man.....i gotta turn conservative....


you guys obviously have acess to the best drugs out there don´t ya?

come on....share the goods man! ~D

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Originally Posted by Ronin

man.....i gotta turn conservative....


you guys obviously have acess to the best drugs out there don´t ya?

come on....share the goods man! ~D

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It called reality man! And it's some really powerful stuff, but you have be careful about how much you take all at once. Liberals especially, never having tried it before need to go slowly. ~D

Well actually the reality is that insane bastard wanted to nuke China and North Korea at the same time. That would have end in millions of people being killed, and a lot more sick even here in Canada.

I haven't read the article because frankly any article that speaks well of this guy does not deserve my attention.

Have fun. ~:cheers:

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I haven't read the article because frankly any article that speaks well of this guy does not deserve my attention.

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Worried it might challenge your preconcieved notions? ~;)

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Feh. McCarthy was nothing but a Christian Extremist who climbed the ladder by blanket-smearing his political opposition as "Pro-Communist". Him and J. Edgar Hoover are rank highest on my list of early-mid 20th century bastardizers of the constitution.

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Ah blind hate - will take your far in life. To bad McCarthy was already a Senator before he started his Anti-communist campaign - or your theory might actually stand up.

However some tidbits of information on Senator McCarthy - some written by individuals that detest him.

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It began in 1950, three years after he had taken his seat in the Senate, where he had seemed a dim and inconsiderable figure. It ended in 1954, when the Senate passed a resolution of censure against him. That was three years before his death at the age of fony-eight. Both his rise and his fall were accomplished with breath-taking speed

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Lets see he climbed the Ladder of Politics - yea right.

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...arthy-bio.html

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There is injustice as well as imprecision in both meanings; if patriotism can hardly be reduced to tracking down Marxists in the pastry kitchens of the Pentagon or the bindery of the Govemment Printing Office, neither is the late Senator's sumame to be placed at the center of all the constellations of political unrighteousness. He was not, for example, totalitarian in any significant sense, or even reactionary. These terms apply mainly to the social and economic order, and the social and economic order didn't interest him in the slightest. If he was anything at all in the realm of ideas, principles, doctrines, he was a species of nihilist; he was an essentially destructive force, a revolutionist without any revelutionary vision, a rebel without a cause.

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BP might like that little quote.

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His early years in the Senate were unimpressive, but in 1949, with several U.S. Cold War setbacks and an increasingly anti-communist political atmosphere at home, McCarthy found a cause. In February 1950, in Wheeling, West Virginia, he made the first of a series of claims that he had the names of "known communists" who were in the employ of the State Department. It was the beginning of a personal witch hunt for communists in the government that lasted for more than five years. McCarthy rarely provided any solid evidence to back up his claims, but in the political climate of the time his accusations and subsequent investigations nonetheless ended many a career and damaged a good number of lives.

After winning re-election in 1952, McCarthy became chairman of the Permanent Investigations Subcommittee, a position he used to launch many of his investigations of government officials and agencies. He did not shy away from questioning the integrity of people such as George C. Marshall, or even President Eisenhower. The latter disliked McCarthy intensely but refused to "get in the gutter with him" and never denounced the senator publicly. However, by 1953 a seemingly out-of-control McCarthy was making many enemies. His investigation of the activities of an Army dentist, Maj. Irving Peress, eventually led to his downfall. In 1954, the Army launched its counterattack, charging that McCarthy was seeking preferential treatment for a consultant, David Schine, who in 1953 had been drafted into the Army. Eventually McCarthy's own subcommittee decided to hold hearings on the matter, the Army-McCarthy hearings. The televised hearings fully exposed McCarthy as irresponsible and dishonest. In December 1954, the Senate voted to censure him. McCarthy never repented, but he quickly descended into irrelevance and alcoholism. He died of a liver ailment in Bethesda, Maryland, on May 2, 1957, at age 47.

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http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war...iles/mccarthy/

Even CNN doesn't make the claim that you are about McCarthy.

Someone needs to do some more reading up on McCarthy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy

Oh by the way no where in my readings does it state McCarthy was a Christian Extremist. Care to provide the supporting evidence for such a claim?

McCarthy was a great, great man. Too bad he wasn't president. America would have won the cold war then.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

McCarthy was a great, great man. Too bad he wasn't president. America would have won the cold war then.

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Naw McCarthy was many things - but he was not great, nor was the villian that he is often protrayed to be. He was a basic middle of the road to bum of a senator who got a 5 minute spotlight because he wanted to route communist spies out of the government.

Many of the things that people complain about when they mention McCarthyism was done by others - especially the Committee on Un-American Activities which was a house committee

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.McCarthy is often incorrectly described as part of the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC), which is well known for the investigation of Alger Hiss which helped bring Richard Nixon into prominence. HUAC was established in May of 1938 as the "Dies Committee" before McCarthy was elected to the Federal office, and, being a House committee, had no connection with McCarthy who served in the Senate. In 1953, playwright Arthur Miller wrote The Crucible, an allegory for McCarthyism. This was probably the primary cause for Miller being brought before the House Committee on Un-American Activities in 1956.

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McCarthy might not have been a Christian Extremist, per se, but he was just as bad. He used Christianity to fuel his anti-communist Witch-hunt.

"Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between Communistic Atheism and Christianity."

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I guess you could say that about the whole congress then. Isnt this when they put in god we trust on our coins and put one nation under god in the pledge of alligance. How many times to we have to tell you that the US is a christain nation. It still is in that most people here are or consider themselves to be christains. Man Linclon and the founding fathers must be really far out there. Also the witch hunt bit has been pretty much debunked if you do some research or even read what posted here.

I am astounded everyday how often the people on this forum who consider themselves Conservatives, love to collectively delude themselves.

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Debunked? I see a bunch of opinionated quotes, is all. You cannot debunk the witch-hunt. J. Edgar Hoover's actions cemented it as fact.

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Have you been reading the same thread as I have? ~:confused:

The funny thing is that everytime someone calls them conservative they say they are Libertarians. LOL, hilarrious. Especially Gawain, he started the Conservative Club for Pluto's sakes!

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Originally Posted by JAG

I am astounded everyday how often the people on this forum who consider themselves Conservatives, love to collectively delude themselves.

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Have to say I agree. It's like rational thought and evaluation have completely left them. I'm pretty sure that they've become some sort of Borg. ~D I'm just waiting for their avatars to change to something more borg like.

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The funny thing is that everytime someone calls them conservative they say they are Libertarians. LOL, hilarrious. Especially Gawain, he started the Conservative Club for Pluto's sakes!

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Do you even know what a libertarian is? Ill give you a hint, they dont work in the library ~D

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I am astounded everyday how often the people on this forum who consider themselves Conservatives, love to collectively delude themselves.

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If thats what you call exposing liberal lies . Look whos accussing people of being deluded.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

McCarthy might not have been a Christian Extremist, per se, but he was just as bad. He used Christianity to fuel his anti-communist Witch-hunt.

"Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between Communistic Atheism and Christianity."

~McCarthy

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Seems the other side agreed with him on the all-out battle!

"Capitalism and Christianity must be destroyed!" Karl Marx

Statement by Lenin: "What does it matter if three-fourths of world is killed, just so the remaining one-fourth is communist."

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

The funny thing is that everytime someone calls them conservative they say they are Libertarians. LOL, hilarrious. Especially Gawain, he started the Conservative Club for Pluto's sakes!

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Yes, I've noticed that as well... I know some real libertarians, and while they are an unusual lot, they are definitely not conservative, or liberal. Their views are far more mixed that those I've seen calling themselves libertarians here.

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Yes, I've noticed that as well... I know some real libertarians, and while they are an unusual lot, they are definitely not conservative, or liberal. Their views are far more mixed that those I've seen calling themselves libertarians here.

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There is only one liberal libertain here and thats Ichi. Maybe you just arent talking about the right topics. As I said Ive never voted for a republican for even dogcatcher . You are the one who tries to portrray yourself as a moderate. I am an unabashed conservative but I dont tow any party line. What your definition of a libertarian? Im for going by the constitution plain and simple so I guess you could call me more of a contsitutionalist.

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Yes, I've noticed that as well... I know some real libertarians, and while they are an unusual lot, they are definitely not conservative, or liberal. Their views are far more mixed that those I've seen calling themselves libertarians here.

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Libertarians and conservatives are related but they are not the same. I am an old style Conservative and have more than a few issues with Neocon Liberals.


The conservative Jim Kalb (whom he quotes) describes the differences thus:

From a theoretical standpoint ideological libertarianism is just another form of rationalism and not at all conservative. As a practical matter though it's mostly an ally of tradition because it opposes the main current enemy, the PC social-services state. The shortcoming of ideological libertarianism is that it says that a very few simple principles are enough for the whole of government and social life. Depending on circumstances that shortcoming can cause serious problems.

Tyler Cowen responds thus:

I would put it a little differently. I view conservatives as holding first a value-laden vision of what America should look like, involving tradition, family, and a certain sternness and emphasis on just desserts. Libertarians also hold a value-laden vision, but their rhetoric involves a greater emphasis on "liberal neutrality" and competing lifestyles... Libertarians share the conservative emphasis on just deserts, hence the immense popularity of Ayn Rand in the libertarian movement. It is for this reason that alliances between libertarians and conservatives are often possible - they share a key value or presupposition. Modern liberals tend to emphasize beneficience instead of just deserts.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

McCarthy might not have been a Christian Extremist, per se, but he was just as bad. He used Christianity to fuel his anti-communist Witch-hunt.

"Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between Communistic Atheism and Christianity."

~McCarthy

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Ah - so you made up the allegation that McCarthy was a Christian Extremist.

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Originally Posted by JAG

I am astounded everyday how often the people on this forum who consider themselves Conservatives, love to collectively delude themselves.

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So to discuss historical facts and perceptions - one must be a consevative - and must be delusional that the same time. Interesting.

Makes me wonder if I should start a thread about the tendency of arguements always breaking down to name calling, using buzz words that have no true application to the context of the discussion, and the tendency of those who claim to be liberial thinkers actually having closed minds to opinions that differ from their own.

Or better yet I should just refer to your comment as

Another comment of idioticy from the peanut gallery.

It says a lot that the liberals have chosen to insult the conservatives on this board, not contest the article. :inquisitive:

McCarthy was a bum. Who cares if people were communist? They had every right to be. If there were any Soviet agents, well that isn't good. But he had no right to do what he did. Being Communist isn't a crime, last I looked.

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The heirs of the people who could tolerate Stalin's murderous regime which slew people by the millions are the people who find it easy to tolerate the horror of partial birth abortion -- and the sale of the body parts of the tiny victims of this holocaust. And they employ the same smear tactics and lies against pro-lifers that their forerunners used against McCarthy, Hoover and their fellow anti-communists.

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Mini Holocaust. Swell.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

As I said Ive never voted for a republican for even dogcatcher .

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Yes, you've said that before and it makes absolutely no sense to me based on what you have said. It's sort of like the "but I didn't inhale" defense.

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You are the one who tries to portrray yourself as a moderate.

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Nope, I'm more of an independent or more accurately, a progressive. Some of my views are moderate, some conservative, some liberal.

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What your definition of a libertarian? Im for going by the constitution plain and simple so I guess you could call me more of a contsitutionalist.

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Well you seem to embrace the old South interpretation of the constitution with all the negatives that entails, so perhaps "antebellum constitutionalist" would be a better description. The libertarians I know are primarily interested in dismantling govt. Sort of like isolationism taken to the extreme, and something that has been proven as unworkable by the entire history of mankind, where splintering and isolating leads to subjugation rather than liberty. They also seem to be blind to the problems of abuses by local authorities, since they support more local control of everything rather than higher authorities...and of course they don't see much need to pay for infrastructure. :dizzy2: Libertarianism from an economic/governance stance is "quaint" but I don't see any pragmatism in it for the modern world. Some of the libertarians I know are also somewhat conservative on individual rights, but not "evangelical" in their approach. Others are downright hostile to the religious Right.

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Yes, you've said that before and it makes absolutely no sense to me based on what you have said. It's sort of like the "but I didn't inhale" defense.

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Oh you mean like my saying I was against the invasion of Iraq. Or that I want smaller government and the republicans have become no better than the deomcrats on this issue under Bush. Or that this administrations handling of our borders , borders on criminal neclect. Whats the use of all the security we have to go through if our borders are a so porous? Im not so different from you. I also consider myslef a moderate but a conservative one as opposed to your being a "proggressive" one. Thats what most liberals here call themselves now. I have never seen anyone as hypocritical on these boards as yourslef. It occurs in almost every post. Face it neither one of us is some way out on the fringe fanatic. On much we agree.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

McCarthy might not have been a Christian Extremist, per se, but he was just as bad. He used Christianity to fuel his anti-communist Witch-hunt.

"Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between Communistic Atheism and Christianity."

~McCarthy

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Pretty much any politician that mentions God or Christ ends up in your bad books huh?

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

It says a lot that the liberals have chosen to insult the conservatives on this board, not contest the article. :inquisitive:

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It says a lot more to me about conservatives that they try to rewrite history on every scoundrel and scumbag who ever had conservative ideas. Trash like the above isn't worth refuting, because it isn't worth reading in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

If you've read any of my posts on this subject at all, you'd know I am not against religious congressmen.

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I've read many of your posts- including one's where you said you thought it was bad or wrong that a Congressman would allow their religion to influence their views... thus my statement. You've said you're opposed to any legislation or lack thereof that could have any religious rationale.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I spent a little while wondering whether i should dignify this with a response. If you've read any of my posts on this subject at all, you'd know I am not against religious congressmen. What I am against are congressmen using religion to further their agenda. The Senate is supposed to be a pure, objective institution. And while it sure as hell rarely comes to that point, muddying everything up with religious bias is a bad choice any way you slice it.

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Amen. (Yes, the irony is intentional.) I agree 100%, am so sick of religion being used as a political tool that I can't even express my level of frustration with it. It should be IRRELEVANT. I can tell you one thing, it has tested my faith listening to these pharisee's abuse their faith. It does give me a better understanding of how screwed up religious based govts are though.

So what political tools are OK? Or are just religion-based ones bad? And why?