Biochemical testing on the Children of the United States

I just heard on television today about something that sickens me so much I wanted to press "the button" on the entire US. Some of you may have heard about the documentary "Guinea Pig Children(Kids?)" that took an in-depth look at a Children's Care Institute in NYC, NY. This institute would take children from mother's or families that could not medicate their children due to HIV disease, other STDs, or born-in drug addictions. Sounds peachy.

Well, they administered drug trials on these children without the consent of any of the parents (as they were assumed by the State and the State became their guardian and advocate). These children were forced to take pills and other medications that caused: muscle death, organ failure, nerve tissue damage, etc. These clinical trials were "supposed to offer long term care and cures to children whose parents were otherwise unable to provide."

These children were surgically implanted with stomach tubes due to refusing the medication, as well as suffering permanent tissue damage, etc. while under the guise of "concern for their well-being." The worst part is that some of these children were only presumed to be infected with HIV, STDs, etc. Presumed? They tested lethal medications on children presumed to be infected?

This, of course, was participated in by the State of New York, the United States government, and many notable universities and hospitals.

What pisses me off the most is that my government, the one which decided without support of its people to send armies into a country to stop a dictator from experimenting with Bio-weapons on HIS OWN PEOPLE. How can one country, one government, be this damned hypocritical? :furious3:

If anyone else hears about this or has any comments please post them here. I really wish the United States returned to a true republic which actually drew power from its people, not lorded it over them.

And moderators, I apologize for any language in this post which may have been or is offensive. I'm at a loss on how to express my current state of dissappointment and anger.

- K J Vermillion II

No comment.....

Nothing new , the government over here did exactly the same .
Orphanages and childrens care homes are a drain on the countries resources , utilising these children for medical research is a way of recouping some of that money .
Oh , and it can bring benefits to mankind as a whole .

Well that explains the third testicle...but seriously if this is true the people responsible should be punished and there drug companies shut down

There are a lot of cases where Uncle Sam injects some of his 'lesser' subjects with biological/radioactive substances. Just google and find.... African americans were rather popular as guinea pigs...

Of course many countries actually did that and even today 'human guinea pigs' are popular. Many pharmaceuticals companies seem to be finding the 'stan' countries very attractive lately, despite the total lack of infrastructure...the reason is that its easy to use human guinea pigs ( who are getting paid for it, although its still illegal and no firm will admit it)

I am shocked that this happens even today in the US. But then I am shocked about a lot of things that happen even today in the US ~D

Where is that tin-foil hat again....?

Someone needs to do research before parading this out.

A couple of months ago, on TV I saw Pikachu thunderbolt some schmuck. I want a Pikachu!

That has just as much validity as you watching a conspiracy show.

Azi

Well lets look at the news articles relating to this story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ld/4038375.stm

http://www.democracynow.org/article....4/12/22/151230

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A new BBC documentary exposes how the city of New York has been forcing HIV positive children under its supervision to be used as human guinea pigs in tests for experimental AIDS drug trials.
All of the children in the program were under the legal guidance of the city's child welfare department, the Administration for Children's Services. Most live in foster care or independent homes run on behalf of the local authorities and almost all the children are believed to be African-American or Latino.

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From this article - I get the impression that the situation in New York that is related to the BBC documentry is basically an out of control local governmental department.

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/GPKADT.php

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The antiretroviral drugs used at the ICC are didanozine and stavudine as well as AZT and nevirapine. It is alleged that many drugs are used in single experimental combinations given to individual children. This is borne out by a trial sponsored by the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD) called “The Safety and Effectiveness of Treating Advanced AIDS Patients between the Ages of 4 and 22 with Seven Drugs, Some at Higher than Usual Doses" [10]. When last checked on 26 May 2005, the website for this trial ( http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00001108?order=1 ) contained the statement in red: “This study is no longer recruiting patients.”

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This one would lead me to assume that the FDA and the United States governmental agency that is suppose to monitor such things is grossly neglected in their oversite.

Following the link to the actual study description
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00001108?order=1

it actually sounds pretty benign. Parental/legal guardian written consent is required, the subjects (6 of them, age 4-22) have HIV that isn't responding to regular treatment. That fact that some are in foster or group homes seems to have inflammed some media sources.

Where is that tin-foil hat again....?
Yes Azi , such things would never happen in real life , I suppose that is why the Irish government is paying out comensation to people who were in its care and were used for testing drugs .

Parental/legal guardian written consent is required,
But Kukri , when it happened over here the State was the legal guardian .

Who ever is responible should be shot. :furious3:

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

No comment.....

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Dang, you removed it! I wanted to see what all the fuss was about!

Well, if nothing else is working on the children then what is the real harm?

Perhaps there is an opportunity to do some real good and give many a second chance at life. Many kids and adults accept experimental drugs when all else fails.

I will admit that the perception is pretty nasty: Kids are wards of the state and therefore must submit to governmental experimenting. This sounds worse then it really is.

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Originally Posted by Swirley_the_turd

I wanted to press "the button" on the entire US

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Swirls, don't you think your reaction is a tad excessive. The people of the U.S. would not stand for this if it were as bad as it sounds.

The best solution is to deny the state the authority to make decisions of this nature on the child's behalf. The perception may be a little too much for the conspiracy theory libs out there. But since when is it ever the right thing to act based on perceptions? We also acted on the perception that Iraq had WMD and was supporting terrorists. We have all kinds of overreactions from both sides of the aisle, right and left, based on assumptions and perception.

I say keep stickin' the kids.

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Originally Posted by swirly_the_turd

What pisses me off the most is that my government, the one which decided without support of its people to send armies into a country to stop a dictator from experimenting with Bio-weapons on HIS OWN PEOPLE. How can one country, one government, be this damned hypocritical? :furious3:
I really wish the United States returned to a true republic which actually drew power from its people, not lorded it over them.

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Come on guy. Don't you think you are just a tad out there on this?

I won't contribute to the degeneration of a perfectly valid thread, but your comments should be addressed. "Without support of its people"? Give me a break. You are living in a liberal fantasy world. Congress, THE VOICE of the people, authorized the President to act. And that was both sides: left and right. And then, after the invasion, the people voted for the Prez to stay in office. So quit acting like you are in the majority and accept your place as the current minority party.

If you want to claim that the President lied and that there is some big conspiracy for oil, then PROVE IT. Not hyperbole and conjecture, but real proof. Do this, and even I, a sworn GOP member and affirmed right winger, will join you in seeing that the entire administration is prosecuted for high crimes and treason.

I want this thread to stay on topic, but I had to address your sophmorish opening as the emotional political rant it was. :coffeenews:

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Dang, you removed it! I wanted to see what all the fuss was about!

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No use anyways....
The warning I got was because I had an emotional out-burst which happenned in this topic.

The mods removed it anyways.....

I wasn't here to discuss the politics of the matter I just was off on an outburst. I don't consider myself either wing, I base my decision on the damn issue, not what others say.

Regardless, I don't think we should jump into another piss ass country because "he is testing on his own people." Big damn deal. Hardly anyone cares that we went over there, and to continue to focus attention on the middle east we now "suspect" Syria and Iran of attempting to acquire nuclear arms and support terrorists.

I'm shocked. Maybe if we stayed the hell out of there they wouldn't be trying so damn hard, would they? And when you resort to swirly_the_turd don't you think that is a tad childish? Really.

And to respond to the example of African Americans being targeted it was called the Tuskegee Project. The US government had syphilis infected prostitutes attempt to infect over 400 black american sharecroppers to study the affects of syphilis on the human body. Obviously, we now know from that study that it destroys your neural pathways and brain tissue over time and can easily be treated in the early stages with antibiotics.

Also, prove to me its not about resources. We found no weapons of mass destruction, the army broke in days because of no morale, and the people want us out of there. We trained Hussein, let him go. We're correcting a damn mistake we made and the extra resources certainly are nice aren't they? I mean with the extra oil, gas prices have only what .. doubled? Nice to control the resources coming into the country. Monopolization rules.

I couldn't care less about Iraq, but now we've made enemies of other mostly muslim countries and for what? No weapons, nearly two thousand dead, and a headache that will last until mid 2006 (as of now).

Besides, we're also the country with over ten thousand nukes telling other countries they can't make a single one. :laugh4:

:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by swirly_the_toilet_fish

I wasn't here to discuss the politics of the matter I just was off on an outburst. I don't consider myself either wing, I base my decision on the damn issue, not what others say.

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Good for you. Though I would venture to say that in time you will find yourself leaning one way or the other. So far your emotional rantings are very media inspired.

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Regardless, I don't think we should jump into another piss ass country because "he is testing on his own people." Big damn deal. Hardly anyone cares that we went over there, and to continue to focus attention on the middle east we now "suspect" Syria and Iran of attempting to acquire nuclear arms and support terrorists.

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It wasn't "about testiing on his own people". It was the WMD. and EVERYONE thought he had em. The UN, Germany, France, England, Israel. Evreryone. And if he did have them, he would happily see them in the hands of terrorists ready to blow up America.

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And when you resort to swirly_the_turd don't you think that is a tad childish? Really.

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Is not a "swirley toilet fish" a Turd? It's your name. You wanted to be a creatively named turd, not me.

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And to respond to the example of African Americans being targeted it was called the Tuskegee Project. The US government had syphilis infected prostitutes attempt to infect over 400 black american sharecroppers to study the affects of syphilis on the human body. Obviously, we now know from that study that it destroys your neural pathways and brain tissue over time and can easily be treated in the early stages with antibiotics.

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Prove that this is real. It would not surprise me if it was pre-civil war. Anything sooner would be mighty interesting indeed. And please show a credible source.

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Also, prove to me its not about resources. We found no weapons of mass destruction, the army broke in days because of no morale, and the people want us out of there. We trained Hussein, let him go. We're correcting a damn mistake we made and the extra resources certainly are nice aren't they? I mean with the extra oil, gas prices have only what .. doubled?

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Come on. Really. Back it up with facts. Show me primary source evidence, pal.

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I couldn't care less about Iraq, but now we've made enemies of other mostly muslim countries and for what? No weapons, nearly two thousand dead, and a headache that will last until mid 2006 (as of now).

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And for what? Iraq WILL be a democracy. And what will happen when the surrounding countries see Iraq in economic and political properity with rule of the people?

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Besides, we're also the country with over ten thousand nukes telling other countries they can't make a single one.

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Would you rather it be ten thousand countries, each with a nuke?

Deterence won the cold war and it keeps the world stable today.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

:laugh4:


It wasn't "about testiing on his own people". It was the WMD. and EVERYONE thought he had em. The UN, Germany, France, England, Israel. Evreryone. And if he did have them, he would happily see them in the hands of terrorists ready to blow up America.



Is not a "swirley toilet fish" a Turd? It's your name. You wanted to be a creatively named turd, not me.



Prove that this is real. It would not surprise me if it was pre-civil war. Anything sooner would be mighty interesting indeed. And please show a credible source.



Come on. Really. Back it up with facts. Show me primary source evidence, pal.



And for what? Iraq WILL be a democracy. And what will happen when the surrounding countries see Iraq in economic and political properity with rule of the people?



Would you rather it be ten thousand countries, each with a nuke?

Deterence won the cold war and it keeps the world stable today.

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1) UN inspectors reported finding absolutely no WMDs. The US went in anyway to find them and then claimed it was an intelligence mistake. That is correct, it showed no intelligence at all.

2) No. I was thinking about those poor little goldfish that die and are flushed down the toilet. :cry:

3) http://ublib.buffalo.edu/libraries/p...ases/blood.htm It occured in 1932. I'm not saying it was a worthless study, but immoral for a country based on morality.

4) No one has proof to support or defeat the argument. It stands that while we now control more oil, the prices have increased and good ol' George is making a bundle. No proof, but you can definitely speculate if you look at both sides.

5) If they survive. Most have no confedience in their new Democracy and they have little defense of their country. Besides, Iran is now the powerhouse of the Middle East. Let's see how they react to our withdrawl in a year.

6) Yet China just threatened to nuke us recently if we got involved in the Beijing and Taiiwan disputes. Yeah it does keep stability. "Come here and I'll blow you up good." Every country should be able to do that so people stayed out of their affairs.

And personally. I like you because you're a respectable opponent. I haven't felt so good about an argument in a while. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by swirly_the_toilet_fish

1) UN inspectors reported finding absolutely no WMDs. The US went in anyway to find them and then claimed it was an intelligence mistake. That is correct, it showed no intelligence at all.

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Wait. I said THOUGHT. Even old Blix THOUGHT so at one time. Saddam bluffed and we called it. Yer out intel was wrong. But so was Britain's, Fanrace's, Germany's, et al.

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2) No. I was thinking about those poor little goldfish that die and are flushed down the toilet. :cry:

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However, I shall forever have the image of a swirling turd when I see thy name. And it shall have fins. And teeth...

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3) http://ublib.buffalo.edu/libraries/p...ases/blood.htm It occured in 1932. I'm not saying it was a worthless study, but immoral for a country based on morality.

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:eeeek:

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4) No one has proof to support or defeat the argument. It stands that while we now control more oil, the prices have increased and good ol' George is making a bundle. No proof, but you can definitely speculate if you look at both sides.

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Hyperbole and conjecture. This is circular reasoning at its finest.
"It's true because it looks like it might be true". Come on. If you want to debate you need to argue facts or philosophy. This is neither. It is base speculation and an insult to everyone's intelligence.

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5) If they survive. Most have no confedience in their new Democracy and they have little defense of their country. Besides, Iran is now the powerhouse of the Middle East. Let's see how they react to our withdrawl in a year.

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Do you really think we are just going to cut and run. That is the Dems strategy, and it will casue more violence. Look what Carter and Clinton's policies did for us. Lebanon. BOOM! Panic! Iran. Hostages! Sell them weapons and concede! Bosnia. BOOM! Run away! We looked like a bunch of pussies. Let's have the guts to stick it out or else we are going to be screwed major. This is our last chance to prove we have a pair without waiting for a nuke first. I think 9/11 was more than enough to take the war to the enemy instead of reacting defensively. You watch the wrong news channels amigo.

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6) Yet China just threatened to nuke us recently if we got involved in the Beijing and Taiiwan disputes. Yeah it does keep stability. "Come here and I'll blow you up good." Every country should be able to do that so people stayed out of their affairs.

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Here are the FACTS with China that they know, Taiwan knows, and the whole world knows. If Taiwan declares independence, we will not support them. If China invades without Taiwan declaring independence first, then we will support them. It is called sticking to the status quo. No one is blowing anyone up. China is growing totally dependant on us economically. They are no longer a communist economy. They are a quasi capitalist economy/ communist government. They are transforming into a free society. albeit slowly.

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And personally. I like you because you're a respectable opponent. I haven't felt so good about an argument in a while. :laugh4:

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I am still waiting for you to win a point. Aside from the whole african american syphilis thing. That was really a horrible thing that I was unaware of. But then slavery sucked. And so did Japanese internment camps. But we are not perfect. We have a flawed system, but it is the best in the world.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Wait. I said THOUGHT. Even old Blix THOUGHT so at one time. Saddam bluffed and we called it. Yer out intel was wrong. But so was Britain's, Fanrace's, Germany's, et al..

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It was a whole load of bull everyone bought into. I'm not saying I didn't, hell I wanted to go in at the time. Not anymore. Is the total life cost worth the fact that our intelligence was wrong? (just referring to WMDs, not the fact they'll become a democracy in this one)

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

However, I shall forever have the image of a swirling turd when I see thy name. And it shall have fins. And teeth...

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No problem, just clearing it up. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Hyperbole and conjecture. This is circular reasoning at its finest.
"It's true because it looks like it might be true". Come on. If you want to debate you need to argue facts or philosophy. This is neither. It is base speculation and an insult to everyone's intelligence.

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Was it not the speculation of WMDs that got the US over there in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Do you really think we are just going to cut and run. That is the Dems strategy, and it will casue more violence. Look what Carter and Clinton's policies did for us. Lebanon. BOOM! Panic! Iran. Hostages! Sell them weapons and concede! Bosnia. BOOM! Run away! We looked like a bunch of pussies. Let's have the guts to stick it out or else we are going to be screwed major. This is our last chance to prove we have a pair without waiting for a nuke first. I think 9/11 was more than enough to take the war to the enemy instead of reacting defensively. You watch the wrong news channels amigo.

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I do argee that we need to stand for something and stand our damn ground once in a while, without our big brothers across the blue chastising us for every step. However, even if we withdraw leaving them enough power and our guarantee of protection, will that stop the new government and infrastructure from surviving an Iranian or Syrian invasion? No. And all of our years of effort, money, and lives will have been for nothing. Instead of 2006 they should have said 2010. Be factual, not optomistic.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Here are the FACTS with China that they know, Taiwan knows, and the whole world knows. If Taiwan declares independence, we will not support them. If China invades without Taiwan declaring independence first, then we will support them. It is called sticking to the status quo. No one is blowing anyone up. China is growing totally dependant on us economically. They are no longer a communist economy. They are a quasi capitalist economy/ communist government. They are transforming into a free society. albeit slowly.

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I know, and they know. As such they have attempted to raise taxes on goods shipped to the United States to discourage trading with us. However, that will only slow there economy to a stand still. Regardless they still threatened us with a nuclear strike for interfering with a problem of theirs that stems from the early twentith century.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

I am still waiting for you to win a point. Aside from the whole african american syphilis thing. That was really a horrible thing that I was unaware of. But then slavery sucked. And so did Japanese internment camps. But we are not perfect. We have a flawed system, but it is the best in the world.

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I agree it is the best we have, but I do believe things could and should have been done differently. Everyone was swept into zeal because of an attack on our soil. It should not have gone unpunished, because it is our soil. Iraq couldn't hold its own in Desert shield or storm, what made people think they had acquired WMDs? Everyone seen the piss weapons they used. And with slavery and the Japanese internment camps being bad, don't you agree Guantanimo Bay is a little excessive?

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Originally Posted by swirly_the_toilet_fish

It was a whole load of bull everyone bought into. I'm not saying I didn't, hell I wanted to go in at the time. Not anymore. Is the total life cost worth the fact that our intelligence was wrong? (just referring to WMDs, not the fact they'll become a democracy in this one)

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Yes. We started this. Let's finish it the right way. The consequences of not doing so are a devasted Iraq controlled by religious fundamentalist extremists. Then we will have to go back anyway. Just consider Iraq the new germany. We were in germany forever for stratgeic reasons, now we will be in Iraq forever for strategic reasons. And BTW, regarding Iran. They are primarily Shiite. And guess what? The new power of Iraq is mostly Shiite. A free and democratic Iraq will boost support for the many reformists of Iran.

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Was it not the speculation of WMDs that got the US over there in the first place?

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That is, uhm, pretty much what I said Swirly. The fact we were wrong is irrlevant now. If we were lied to, then I support impeachment. But we need evidence. Not a hunch or a guess or a speculation or a stone skipped across the water with a daydream of lives never lived and dreams that will never be.

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I do argee that we need to stand for something and stand our damn ground once in a while, without our big brothers across the blue chastising us for every step. However, even if we withdraw leaving them enough power and our guarantee of protection, will that stop the new government and infrastructure from surviving an Iranian or Syrian invasion? No. And all of our years of effort, money, and lives will have been for nothing. Instead of 2006 they should have said 2010. Be factual, not optomistic.

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Woh woh Woh. MR. Negativity here. Let us be factual then. The US would love to take out Syria. And Iran. Do you not agree? And don't you think they both know that? And if we establish a fledging democracy in Iraq and it is stepped on by big bad Iran and mean Mr Syria, don't you think we would now have an excuse to blow them up too? Right. So now that is settled. They want to survive so they aren't going to do a damn thing. Besides, The Syrians like the Iraqi Baathists and the Iranians like the Iraqi Shiites. No one is doing anything over there.

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I know, and they know. As such they have attempted to raise taxes on goods shipped to the United States to discourage trading with us. However, that will only slow there economy to a stand still. Regardless they still threatened us with a nuclear strike for interfering with a problem of theirs that stems from the early twentith century.

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It is called posturing. It is a statement meant to show us that they still have teeth but not meant to be an actual threat. You bite me, I bite you back kind of thing. Nobody wants nuclear war, including the chinese. They are just putting on a show. Remeber the cold war? That was ALL posturing. We just flexed and flexed and flexed until the soviets decides to go home.

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I agree it is the best we have, but I do believe things could and should have been done differently. Everyone was swept into zeal because of an attack on our soil. It should not have gone unpunished, because it is our soil. Iraq couldn't hold its own in Desert shield or storm, what made people think they had acquired WMDs? Everyone seen the piss weapons they used. And with slavery and the Japanese internment camps being bad, don't you agree Guantanimo Bay is a little excessive?

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I remember the lead up to the war quite distinctly. I was reenlisting and trying to go. Alas, stop move stop loss prevents all forces from transfering units. I missed the good part. Now it's just us vs. ourselves over there. Who will win? Patience and commitment? Or Liberal media sabotage?

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Yes. We started this. Let's finish it the right way. The consequences of not doing so are a devasted Iraq controlled by religious fundamentalist extremists. Then we will have to go back anyway. Just consider Iraq the new germany. We were in germany forever for stratgeic reasons, now we will be in Iraq forever for strategic reasons. And BTW, regarding Iran. They are primarily Shiite. And guess what? The new power of Iraq is mostly Shiite. A free and democratic Iraq will boost support for the many reformists of Iran.

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While I do believe that having some influence in the Middle East to boost reforms and most some economic headway for countries that have had little (for their people anyway) I cannot justify sustaining a presence in a country that just doesn't want the help. If it meant NOT having an continued presence I'd support this operation, but we are trying to stop religious dogma and ideals with weapons. Can't happen. The ideas within these fundamentalist have to die with them in old age, not in martyrdom.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

That is, uhm, pretty much what I said Swirly. The fact we were wrong is irrlevant now. If we were lied to, then I support impeachment. But we need evidence. Not a hunch or a guess or a speculation or a stone skipped across the water with a daydream of lives never lived and dreams that will never be.

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I meant in reference to the whole oil thing. Speculation is all we have that the main purpose of this attack was resources. While I don't believe it personally, it seems to be benefitting the few more than the many. Even impeachment can't erase the fact we've been over there and will remain there for quite sometime. Speculation is fruitless as proof and for the basis of decisions, but that doesn't stop people from searching for things that may or may not be there. Such as the case with WMDs and this whole oil conspiracy.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Woh woh Woh. MR. Negativity here. Let us be factual then. The US would love to take out Syria. And Iran. Do you not agree? And don't you think they both know that? And if we establish a fledging democracy in Iraq and it is stepped on by big bad Iran and mean Mr Syria, don't you think we would now have an excuse to blow them up too? Right. So now that is settled. They want to survive so they aren't going to do a damn thing. Besides, The Syrians like the Iraqi Baathists and the Iranians like the Iraqi Shiites. No one is doing anything over there.

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I do agree and of course they do. And yes. It may not occur in the foreseeable future, but do you believe that the Iranian clerics are going to let 'western' influence taint their lands? While they as a country may not go into war directly, they do not mind having terrorist cells operate for them. So unoffically they are warring with us, but offically they just believe the western heretics need to leave.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

It is called posturing. It is a statement meant to show us that they still have teeth but not meant to be an actual threat. You bite me, I bite you back kind of thing. Nobody wants nuclear war, including the chinese. They are just putting on a show. Remeber the cold war? That was ALL posturing. We just flexed and flexed and flexed until the soviets decides to go home.

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I remember the war and it is still present to this day just with new foes, hell it was there in 2000 when Russia let those 180(?) die on a nuclear sub. While China doesn't support N.Korean nuclear weapons, they seem eager to test theirs out in the near future. We both agree we cannot win a ground war with China, nor at this moment could we considering being offensive against them. While it may just be flexing, the US is responding by staying out of the dispute and not "flexing" back.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

I remember the lead up to the war quite distinctly. I was reenlisting and trying to go. Alas, stop move stop loss prevents all forces from transfering units. I missed the good part. Now it's just us vs. ourselves over there. Who will win? Patience and commitment? Or Liberal media sabotage?

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Patience and commitment will win the war, the media shall win the day. Personally on most of these points I take your position (mostly) but it may be my lack of experience (for which I make up for in zeal and tenacity :wiseguy:) that I cannot just accept that these events HAD to play out in this fashion.

Besides, we have been off-topic forever in this thread. If we continue it should be in another thread all together. :laugh4:

I'm retiring for the night, but I should check back in tomorrow. If you move this to another thread or whatnot I will respond to you there. Otherwise I'll expect your response here tomorrow. Good night. :snore:

Off topic , but
Look what Carter and Clinton's policies did for us. Lebanon. BOOM! Panic!
Don't you mean Reagan , BOOM! Panic! invade Grenada ~D Weapons for hostages was a Reagan thing aswell ~;)

Fascinating one-on-one debate, but, at this point entirely off-topic. Have we resolved the "US Orphans getting Jabbed with Weird Drugs against their Will" issue? If so, we'll close this one and you fellas can join any one of the myriad "US, right or wrong" threads.

shite. drops my mouth wide open