Movement Speeds

Sure this has been discussed to death but anyway...

For all those of you who have played RTR 6.0 you may have noticed that while the infantry and cavalry still march at the same rate, they run MUCH slower, especially the infantry. Their running speed is hardly higher than their marching speed, it really is quite ridiculous.
I agree that the current infantry run speed is too fast but RTR made it too slow. I hope EB will keep the infantry run speed at a reasonable pace.
Do not change the cavalry speeds, they are good as they are. Watching a cataphract charge in RTR is like watch a retirement home relay race!

It depends on the infantry unit, Galatian Swordsmen run ridiculously slow, so slow it's out of synch with their animation, like when soldiers get exhausted, but even at Fresh state. Some phalanx units who are much more heavily armored including a massive shield, carry two weapons, the huge long spear and a sword, can run faster than Galatian Swordsmen, what's the excuse? Galatians are lazy and have no stamina?

Sometimes I also feel these units are "too" slow but I think most of the units are quite "normal".

What really bothers me with RTR6.0 are little unbalanced issues, for example, take the Seleucid Sword "Hypaspistai" (sp), those guys are super-men, I thought Roman Legionaries were mythological enough, but that Seleucid "Elite" unit gives a whole new meaning to the word "Elite", play the game, fight them and you'll see what I mean, if you want to go against the Seleucids, well, DON'T, not untill you have the best units your faction can recruit, with the best armor, commanded by the best General and make sure to use your best tactics, because you have to surround them and beat their morale to win, the only way to kill them is when they rout.

Wouldn't changing the movement speed make for weird animation effects, or has the EB team made all-new animations?

I must say I'm totally fine with movement speed in RTR. It just needs some getting use to it. After all Cataphracts are meant for cirurgical strikes not for running around.
The running speed is a lot faster than marching but you have to remember that as everything is slowed down it takes more time for you to notice a difference than it did in vanilla.

kayapó

You can use Verci's tool to change movement speeds without creating new animations. Often, movement speed changes are done through terrain modifiers, which is why (I believe, I haven't tried it) you see the incongruous animation effect in RTR.

I like RTR movement rates as its near the good old STW/MTW and means more control in battles. I dont know how RTR did it but I can see that it wasnt the movement modifiers as things like grass and stone road is still 1.00


CBR

Verci's tool changes movement speed but not animation speed. So units end up "moonwalking", just like they do when using terrain modifiers.

I'm all for slower movement speeds tho. Makes the positioning of units much more important. The fact that units on one flank can't reinforce the units on the other flank in a few seconds time only adds to strategical gameplay. I haven't played RTR so I don't know how slow it is.

From the numbers I saw heavy infantry has same run speed as MTW while cav was slightly faster. The faster infantry might be faster than the lights in MTW.. not sure.

Run speed in RTW is about 60% faster than MTW so reducing it back to MTW levels means a lot for control and my enjoyment of the battles.


CBR

I also like RTR6.0 speed as it is. I enjoy the battles a lot more than those in Vanilla RTW. RTR is a great mod BTW. Now i'm just waiting for EB open beta ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Wardo

What really bothers me with RTR6.0 are little unbalanced issues, for example, take the Seleucid Sword "Hypaspistai" (sp), those guys are super-men, I thought Roman Legionaries were mythological enough, but that Seleucid "Elite" unit gives a whole new meaning to the word "Elite", play the game, fight them and you'll see what I mean, if you want to go against the Seleucids, well, DON'T, not untill you have the best units your faction can recruit, with the best armor, commanded by the best General and make sure to use your best tactics, because you have to surround them and beat their morale to win, the only way to kill them is when they rout.

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Uh, I never had any trouble dealing with them - two units of horse archers, shoot them up and then hit them from the rear and front simulataneously - instarout everytime.

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Originally Posted by dgb

Uh, I never had any trouble dealing with them - two units of horse archers, shoot them up and then hit them from the rear and front simulataneously - instarout everytime.

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I agree. In fact I find RTR so easy my only motivation is to try to finish every battle without loosing a single man.

kayapó

How did the EB guys address cataphracts in EB anyway?

In MTW cataphracts were done well, they were damned tough but that was traded off in slow speed and quicker fatigue (makes sense with all that armour), so faster but less uber cavalry were still useful. RTW with its limited horse models made any heavy cavalry other than cataphracts obsolete for the side possessing them as they were all the same horse speed.

Did EB add more horse models (i.e. a slower one for cataphracts) or some other means of compensating for the cataphracts massive armour?

Genuinely curious.

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Originally Posted by khelvan

Often, movement speed changes are done through terrain modifiers, which is why (I believe, I haven't tried it) you see the incongruous animation effect in RTR.

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No, 6.0 uses XIDX (or maybe AnimPacker?) exclusively, but apparently they still get moonwalking. They say it'll be fixed for 6.1, so I don't know what the story is there.

Where do I get Verci's tool?

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Originally Posted by dgb

Uh, I never had any trouble dealing with them - two units of horse archers, shoot them up and then hit them from the rear and front simulataneously - instarout everytime.

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That's exactly what I said, you can ONLY "kill" them when they rout, you say you never had any trouble dealing with them when you use horse archers and hit them simultaneously from both sides, which is exactly what I said you needed to do, but if you DON'T do that, you will not be able to "deal" with them. The point is about realism not "dealing" with them, everybody agrees Roman soldiers were not super-men, then why are the Seleucids allowed to have a Super-men Unit who, unless they rout, are the ultimate super-human warriors who will not go down?

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I agree. In fact I find RTR so easy my only motivation is to try to finish every battle without loosing a single man.

kayapó

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You do know there's a reason why it's called TOTAL REALISM and not TOTAL CHALLENGE?

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Originally Posted by Wardo

That's exactly what I said, you can ONLY "kill" them when they rout,

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Yes that is what you said. Don't forget the rest that you said however. To remind you.

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Originally Posted by Wardo

play the game, fight them and you'll see what I mean, if you want to go against the Seleucids, well, DON'T, not untill you have the best units your faction can recruit, with the best armor, commanded by the best General and make sure to use your best tactics, because you have to surround them and beat their morale to win, the only way to kill them is when they rout.

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So two units of horse archers now = the best units Parthia can recruit? Also they had no armour, nor did they have a general with them. There was nothing particularly special about the tactics I used either.

So in summary, you did say that you can only kill them when they rout. You also added on a whole heap of things that you defined as necessities, which are not necessary at all.

You are absolutely right, I am amazed to see how sophisticated my play style has become, I appreciate your notice and I will try to be more simplistic in my future games, why bother with all that whole useless heap of unnecessary things anyway, it does not matter at all if that unit has a defense value set too high.

Here is a lesson to EB, don't waste time or bother with whole heaps of unnecessary things as all we need to enjoy a game as Parthia against the Seleucids are two units of horse archers, with no armor, no general and no particularly special tactics.

Can someone actually answer my question and tell me where "Verci's" tool is found?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44050

Should be in there some where....

Is the animation modifier tool by Vercingetroix or the Terrain movement multiplier mod?

Do I need to go into 3DSMax to use Vercin's tool?

The former, and no.

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Originally Posted by Es Arkajae

How did the EB guys address cataphracts in EB anyway?

In MTW cataphracts were done well, they were damned tough but that was traded off in slow speed and quicker fatigue (makes sense with all that armour), so faster but less uber cavalry were still useful. RTW with its limited horse models made any heavy cavalry other than cataphracts obsolete for the side possessing them as they were all the same horse speed.

Did EB add more horse models (i.e. a slower one for cataphracts) or some other means of compensating for the cataphracts massive armour?

Genuinely curious.

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Well, there will be many types of cataphracts. Some have less armor than others, thus would be faster. They probably would be a bit slower than say Hetairoi, but they will be faster than infantry. But a cataphract would probably beat any other heavy horse on a head on charge.
So in short yes, the cataphracts will possess their historical strengths as well as shortcomings instead of just being another heavy horse.

Yeah but how does EB fix that problem?, I was under the impression that there were only three mounted models and thus three speed types possible (elephant, heavy cavalry and light cavalry).

If it was possible to add more than thats great news and is good to hear.

Speed is based on the skeleton, not the model. Plus, we can define new mounts if we like.

Thanks I meant 'skeleton' and if you can assign new 'skeletons' then thats great news, one wonders why cataphtacts weren't made slower then with slower skeletons in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Turin

Sure this has been discussed to death but anyway...

For all those of you who have played RTR 6.0 you may have noticed that while the infantry and cavalry still march at the same rate, they run MUCH slower, especially the infantry. Their running speed is hardly higher than their marching speed, it really is quite ridiculous.
I agree that the current infantry run speed is too fast but RTR made it too slow. I hope EB will keep the infantry run speed at a reasonable pace.
Do not change the cavalry speeds, they are good as they are. Watching a cataphract charge in RTR is like watch a retirement home relay race!

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They don't charge they trot. ~;)