Naval combat

Does anyone know if there is a good big gun warship naval sim out there? (ie probably WWI or WWII) I'm thinking one that allows you to fight fleet actions. I remember one came out a few years ago, the name escapes me, but although the ship to ship stuff had good reviews, it didn't include submarines (or it might have been aircraft, or even both) and all actions were deep water (ie it didn't include land either).

That seemed to me to change the tactcial options so much that it wasn't worth having. Hunting the Bismark without the Ark Royal? Closing on Jutland knowing there were no Germans submarines ahead? Bleh.

Anyone got anything like this they would recommend?

I remembaer hearing about a destroyer sim a while back, Destroyer Command or some such-although, the ships involved might not be big enough for you. The cool bit about it, from what I read, was that the same company made a Submarine command, and you could multi with the Destroyer Command players hunting the Submarine command players.

I never played it though, so I don't know if the execution was as good as the concept.

I played Submarine Command and I too heard about the Destroyer/Sub battles but to be honest those sort of games arn't really my cup of tea.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Does anyone know if there is a good big gun warship naval sim out there?

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NWS: Thunder at Sea is an operational naval campaign simulator centering on surface warfare that also includes air and submarine elements. Thunder at Sea uses the latest version of the Fighting Steel Project to resolve the resulting surface engagements. Thunder at Sea is capable of simulating any naval operation between 1890 and 1945. Command the lonely Tirpitz lurking in Norwegian fiords, ready to pounce upon the arctic convoys. Lead savage encounters in the waters outside Guadalcanal. Hunt disguised raiders in the vast reaches of the Indian Ocean. Face the rain of steel conducting evacuations off Crete. Thunder at Sea comes with several operational scenarios including Operation Rheinubung, Guadalcanal, Malta convoys, Arctic convoys and German raiders in the Indian Ocean. Information on fates of individual ships recorded and presented after the battle. also included is a random scenario generator. In addition, users can create their own scenarios, or edit existing scenarios, as the scenario format is fully open and documented. Documentation of scenario format is included with the simulation.

Features:
* Full zoom capable detailed strategic map covering any theatre in the world.
* Land and weather effects included.
* Land based and carrier air, submarines and minefields.
* Recon by land or carrier aviation, or floatplanes.
* Shadowing by cruiser patrols.
* Realistically unclear, delayed, or even misleading sighting reports.
* Operational scenarios covering up to a month.
* Real time with pause function for orders.
* Realistic range limitations and refueling, at sea or in port.
* Missions for task forces include: Convoy, Tactical transport, Bombard, Mine laying, Intercept, Patrol etc.
* Surface battles are resolved using the latest version of the free Fighting Steel Project.
* Automatic feedback of battle results from Fighting Steel.
* Cause of loss recorded for every ship sunk or damaged.
* Play as either side or let the AI handle both sides and sit back and play the resulting scenarios.
* Campaigns with a series of linked Thunder at Sea scenarios in a specific theatre.
* The ability to edit your own missions using a scenario editor!


Thunder at Sea

Fighting Steel Project

Fantastic, thanks Puzz3d. Henceforth you may all call me First Sea Lord Assassin.

@BKS, destroyers would be cool, but it was heavy metal I was really hoping for, right enough.

If you want something more along the 3d tactical side try Enigma: Rising Tide (Gold Edition)
It is set in a fictitious world c.1937+ assuming the first world war never ended and technological developments have advanced, but the ships are still pretty historically accurate and you get to play surface or in subs. There are campaigns for each of the main nations as well as singleplayer. Multiplayer is to follow. The accent is very much on tactics and some of the campaign missions are extremely tough.

How's about Silent Hunter 3?!

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

mmm.. I'd love a game that lets me play out the Battle of Jutland in a nice strategic fashion.

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Ditto

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

How's about Silent Hunter 3?!

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It's a great game, but you can only play with U-boats, and I think that English Assassin is looking for a game where you can play with battleships in large sea battles.

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Originally Posted by Marcellus

It's a great game, but you can only play with U-boats, and I think that English Assassin is looking for a game where you can play with battleships in large sea battles.

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Yes indeed. I fancy myself as Beatty, not Doenitz. Fighting Steel was the game engine I was remembering from a few years back, so I've ordered Thunder at Sea and I'll post if its any good.

Enigma-Rising Tide looked OK but NO ROYAL NAVY OPTION. What is that all about? Voice command looked fun though.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Yes indeed. I fancy myself as Beatty, not Doenitz. Fighting Steel was the game engine I was remembering from a few years back, so I've ordered Thunder at Sea and I'll post if its any good.

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You have Fighting Steel to resolve the battles in Thunder at Sea? It's separate and cost $10. The Fighting Steel Project v10.1 update is free.

Opps, I got confused between fighting steel, and the fighting steel project upgrades. I bet this would never have happened to Nelson. Never mind, both are on order now.

Anyone remember an old Microprose title called Task Force: 1942? It is my favorite surface naval sim ever. This game has a great campaign that allows you to control DE to BB as USN or IJN as you try to influence the outcome ashore on Guadalcanal.

I would love to see a new big gun naval sim that gets you into the gun directors seat, the torpedo mounts and the AAA. The destroyer sims of late haven’t done much for me. SH3 is outstanding but sub games are way different from hammering surface shootouts. There’s nothing quite so satisfying as observing shot fall until you straddle your target and see the hits.

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I bet this would never have happened to Nelson

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Blimey. No sooner do I speak than his Lordship appears... ;-)

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Originally Posted by Nelson

Anyone remember an old Microprose title called Task Force: 1942? It is my favorite surface naval sim ever. This game has a great campaign that allows you to control DE to BB as USN or IJN as you try to influence the outcome ashore on Guadalcanal.

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I went with the Great Naval Battles series. It had its problems in the surface combat model and poor tactical AI. Even so, I found GNB II Guadalcanal quite interesting mostly for the carrier ops, and played it a lot.

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Originally Posted by Nelson

There’s nothing quite so satisfying as observing shot fall until you straddle your target and see the hits.

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That's the main attraction of Fighting Steel. The FSP has brought the realism of the combat model to a high level, and the AI is good. However, there is no land, aircraft or submarines in the tactical game. The Thunder at Sea wrapper provides those aspects at the strategic level. Damage to ships and other stats such as remaining ammo are passed between the strategic and tactical games. In a recent Bismark breakout scenario I played, the Bismark was hit by a torpedo during an attack by swordfish planes on the strategic map which slowed it to 10 knots (a very lucky hit). Later a British task force of 2 BB's, 10 DD's and 1 CA intercepted the two German ships, and Fighting Steel was invoked to play out the battle. The Bismark didn't stand a chance against such a force, and the 10 knot max speed prevented it from disengaging. At the end of the scenario, the Bismark was heavily damaged and dead in the water. The DD's which were left to finish her off failed because they needed one more torpedo hit than they got. However, the Bismark wasn't going to escape back on the strategic map because she was dead in the water. The British Task Force re-engaged, and when Fighting Steel was invoked again, the BB's quickly sank the Bismark.

So it's like RTW, with this "Thunder at Sea" program for the strategy map, but "Fighting Steel" for graphical tactical battles?

And has Fighting Steel been improved since Gamespot gave it a 5.6?

Well Thunder at Sea is continuous play with a pause option, and yes Fighting Steel has been greatly enhanced over the past 5 years. SSI gave the source code to the people working on the Fighting Steel Project with the stipulation that any improvements to the game would be made available free of charge.

I had Jane's Naval Command, but I never really took well to it. Beyond that, I used to play Silent Service for the NES with my father as a child, so I recently picked that up for nostalgic value. You can only be a sub, but it's pretty intense.

I've been eyeing this little bugger off since someone posted this link here a couple of years ago:

The Russo-Japanese War 1904-1905 (Development Title)

Still waiting...

A.

Edit: Alternatively, click here .

Aaaaaargh!

Actually you can get some pretty nice surface battles out of SH3. The downside is just that you have to create them and that they are resolved without your intervention. But they are indeed very nice to look at (I still play my Bismarck-Tirpitz-Prinz Eugen vs Rodney-Nelson-Dido-Fiji).

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Russo-Japanese war? Doesn't sound so fun. It was awfully one-sided. Even if you deviate from history, the disparity between forces is pretty pathetic.

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The game is developed by Norm Koger. He's legendary in wargame development. According to a post on usenet, Norm responded to a recent email that the game is finished and ready for release, and he's working on the legal contracts to get it released. In the past, he's been prevented from patching his games by publishers, and it would be nice if he could find a way around that problem even if it meant self-publishing and charging more for the game. This is where Fighting Steel Project excels because it has gotten 10 major revisions and many minor revisions over the last 4 years because SSI relinquished some of their legal control and allowed the source code to be modified.


Kraxis,

The Bismark breakout scenario in Fighting Steel Project with the Thunder at Sea wrapper is very good. I've played it over 50 times, and haven't tired of it. Navies at War due for release Q2 2006 will replace Fighting Steel Project, and will have land masses included in the tactical engine.

Hmm... Ehm, what am I supposed to order? The Fighting Steel game or the Fighting Steel Project CD? Can't find the first, but the second costs 10$. I'm a little confused.

You have to own the Fighting Steel game or purchase it for $10. Fighting Steel Project is a free download and patches the Fighting Steel game. The current version of Fighting Steel Project is apparently the last major revision which will be released. You can also buy their Thunder at Sea operational campaign simulator which costs $25, and includes the Fighting Steel Project patch. There are air and submarine elements included in Thunder at Sea, and it calls Fighting Steel to resolve the ship-to-ship battles. It's not necessary to keep any CD's in the drive.

Let me get this straight, you can't go in and play captain? Or firedirector? It is purely tactical and strategic considerations?

At the operational level in Thunder at Sea, you control the speed and movement of task forces, refueling, patroling, detaching ships and can make air strikes from carriers. There is air recon but I think it's automatic if you have the aircraft, and I think the land based aircraft strikes are automatic. I believe submarine attacks are automatic as well. You can hit mines.

At the tactical level in Fighting Steel, you control individual ships or groups of ships in a division. You can detach ships from a division. You control speed, direction, smoke, evasive maneuvering, recognition lights, forward main batteries, aft main batteries, port secondary batteries, starboard secondary batteries, ammo type (armor piercing, high explosive, common and starshells), torpedoes and searchlights. Ships can sustain superstructure damage, fires, knocked out turrets and torpedoe mounts, flooding, magazine hits and damage or destruction of important systems such as damage control, electrical, bridge, radar, engines, rudder, optical sights and searchlights. Damage control is automatic. You can play entirely on a 3D map or switch to a 2D map. Probabilities of hitting the target are continuously available. Direct and plunging fire is modeled and armor thickness varies on different parts of the ship; all historically accurate for the type of ship and shells fired. Ships slow down when flooding until the flooding is controlled and the water pumped out. Firing rate declines as different systems sustain damaged, and recovers if the systems can be repaired.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

mmm.. I'd love a game that lets me play out the Battle of Jutland in a nice strategic fashion.

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Ever tried Jutland?

CA and up individual, DD & CL flotillas and demi-flotillas...


Seamus

Ahh good...

I remember an old game that was similar to this. Can't remember the name really and everything was in 2D on a map. But there you could control the damage control (first you had to put out fires, then repair, before pumping out). And you could assign planes to patrol.
It was beautiful when you sighted a British fleet and sent 50 He111 to attack it with two torpedoes each. All those streaks.... BOOOOM!!!

Well, I might get Fighting Steel.

But wouldn't it be cool with an MP game where one guy controls the fire direction and rudder, and others control the weapons. I can just imagine the fire director yelling out loud "NONONO 200 meters UP!"

The focus of Fighting Steel is on maneuvering the ships and deciding what to shoot at given the tactical situation and the strategic objective. You aren't taken away from that level of decision making by personally aiming the guns or managing a damage control team. You're thinking remains focused on that of a Captain or Admiral, and there are positive aspects to that in terms of immersion into that role and maintaining clear thinking about the decisions to be made.

A few other things about the game not all postive: Fighting Steel can handle up to 32 ships in a battle. Weather effects and sea state leave a lot to be desired visually. Ships don't slow down when they turn. I can't Alt Tab out of a battle in progress and return to it because the graphics don't all come back properly. You can save and reload ok.

Oh, so there will be no Jutland?
Damn... The only true big dreadnought battle and it isn't possible.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Oh, so there will be no Jutland?

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No Jutland. And, as far as I can tell Fighting Steel only has WWII ships. So, eventhough Thunder at Sea can handle battles from 1890 to 1946, I don't see how Fighting Steel can handle it. The plan was to put ships going all the way back to ironclads into Fighting Steel, but I think it turned into too much work to accomplish. I'll try to find out more about this.