Unlikely Empires - play from small beginnings

Unlikely Empires is a small scale faction replacement mod for vanilla Rome:TW.

The mod will allow you to play as one of two new factions, Hibernia and Crete. Both of these factions will begin a campaign with only their domestic island province and a low income. This mod aims to provide the challenge of forging an empire from such humble beginnings. :scastle:


I am creating this mod because I would really like to play a campaign in, more or less, vanilla RTW as a small island faction. If anyone else enjoys the mod too, when it's finished, that will be a bonus. ~D

So far, I have spent some weeks researching the histories of these "factions" and compiling notes to base them upon. This has been quite a lot of fun in itself as I have learned a great deal about the backgrounds of these islands. :book:

I have also layed the groundwork for the mod. There's not much for me to show at the moment, but I hope to be able to update this post with more information as I progress.

Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions. :charge:

Sounds very intresting, but what factions are you replacing?

Hi King of Atlantis. I am replacing Thrace and Scythia.

Thrace is greek and Scythia is barbarian, so these are excellent candidates for replacement by Crete and Hibernia for cultural reasons.

The gap left by Thrace is easily filled by a single Thraco-Dacian faction, while Scythia is far enough away from the two new factions for its absence to make little difference to them directly. Scythia will become a strong rebel sub-faction with all of its vanilla units and provinces, to prevent rapid AI expansion in the North-East.

So, you're using the vanilla map? Id recommend using a different one..that map just...sucks. Maybe mundus magnus or something.

Given that Mundus Magnus stretches the map to the east and the south, even further from the lands of Hibernia and Crete, strikes me that all the land added would be wasted.You might want a map that would round out Scotland, that's about it.

Interesting idea, Nigedo. Best of luck with it. I'd be interested to hear of what you're doing with the different units for these nations. Would their entire unit list be available from the start or would their unit list grow as they expand?
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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Given that Mundus Magnus stretches the map to the east and the south, even further from the lands of Hibernia and Crete, strikes me that all the land added would be wasted.You might want a map that would round out Scotland, that's about it.

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Yes, I agree. A more appropriate map might be one that increases the number of provinces without extending the geographical area by much. I may consider it more later.

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Interesting idea, Nigedo. Best of luck with it. I'd be interested to hear of what you're doing with the different units for these nations. Would their entire unit list be available from the start or would their unit list grow as they expand?

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Thank you. ~:)

I am planning on having their unit lists behave the same way as in vanilla, with progression upon construction of the requisite recruitment buildings. Is there another way?

Yes i recommend more province map. Lus you should add to the north to include scotland..

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

Yes i recommend more province map. Lus you should add to the north to include scotland..

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Yes, I'll give it some thought.

Of course, changes to the map will require much more research and modding time, so I need to be cautious about extending the scope of the mod in this way.

Thanks for the suggestions. ~:)

I recommend trying to get one of the earlier RTR maps. More provinces and includes Scotland..

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

I recommend trying to get one of the earlier RTR maps. More provinces and includes Scotland..

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Oh? Which maps are these; made by other modders, or released with an early demo version of RTW?

Where would I find an example of one?

RTR- Rome Total Realism. Currently the biggest mod out..

There new versions have huge maps, but earlier they just added what i said.

Probably version 3 or 4. RTR is hosted at TWC and they have their own forum too...

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Originally Posted by King of Atlantis

RTR- Rome Total Realism. Currently the biggest mod out..

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Ah, right. Yes of course. I'll take a look at that option then. Thanks. ~:)

Look through the TWC downloads section, some of the old RTR mods are uploaded there, you wont find them in the forum.

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Originally Posted by Nigedo

Hi King of Atlantis. I am replacing Thrace and Scythia.

Thrace is greek and Scythia is barbarian, so these are excellent candidates for replacement by Crete and Hibernia for cultural reasons.

The gap left by Thrace is easily filled by a single Thraco-Dacian faction, while Scythia is far enough away from the two new factions for its absence to make little difference to them directly. Scythia will become a strong rebel sub-faction with all of its vanilla units and provinces, to prevent rapid AI expansion in the North-East.

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I like playing the Scythians/Samatians(RTR 6.0), :eeeek:
Can understand the whole thing with Thrace, but you have the same dynamic with the Numidians with Cathage which could be filled by a single Carthagian-Numidian faction, I could be wrong, just putting it out there. :idea3: Last question, when should it be ready :medievalcheers:

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Originally Posted by Helgi

I like playing the Scythians/Samatians(RTR 6.0), :eeeek:
Can understand the whole thing with Thrace, but you have the same dynamic with the Numidians with Cathage which could be filled by a single Carthagian-Numidian faction

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Hi Helgi. Numidia share the carthaginian culture so they wouldn't be suitable to convert into a barbarian faction.

The mod is mainly to allow you to play as Hibernia or Crete. You will be able to switch quickly back to vanilla (or RTR 6) using the Mod Switcher utility when you want to play Scythia.

When will it be ready? Not for some time. Watch here for updates and I'll let you know about my progress. Thanks for showing interest. ~D

Mod-Switcher compatibility? Good on you, Nigedo.

I will certainly give this a try when it comes out. Best of luck - I can't help much. ~:)

Thanks Alexander. ~:cheers:

I have some doubts about which community standard mods to include within this mod. Hopefully you should all be able to help me work them out. :help:

I want to include Player1's "Bug Fixer", the "Play All Factions" mod (with changes where appropriate) and compatability with Epistolary Richard's "Proper Wonders".

What other vanilla improvement mods should I include or add compatability for?

Are there any good skin/unit replacement mods I should consider (other than "Darth Mod")? :dizzy2:

Doesn't the world standing of Crete make this concept farfetched? Crete wasn't united under one flag after Minoa fell. Maybe you should consider dividing the already small island of crete into two provinces, I think that will better simulate what you're looking for, a ridiculous level of difficulty. From the challenge point of view this looks promising. For Crete I'd like to know what units you plan on making. Will it be very similar to Greece? Archers will obviously play a major role, with maybe some thracian unit types and two unique hoplites, one regular and one elite. You might also consider just for realism a fast moving transport with high attack and low defense, to simulate the effects on technology piracy has had on the island. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Mod-Switcher compatibility? Good on you, Nigedo.

I will certainly give this a try when it comes out. Best of luck - I can't help much. ~:)

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all mods mods are compatible i believe.

Technically. But only one or maybe two have been outright accepting of it. I hope Nigedo also provides a .RMOD download for Switcher Users ("Switchees"?) for convenience. I don't really like having to make my own .RMOD's without knowing if they will work or not. :book:

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Originally Posted by Nigedo

Hi Helgi. Numidia share the carthaginian culture so they wouldn't be suitable to convert into a barbarian faction.

The mod is mainly to allow you to play as Hibernia or Crete. You will be able to switch quickly back to vanilla (or RTR 6) using the Mod Switcher utility when you want to play Scythia.

When will it be ready? Not for some time. Watch here for updates and I'll let you know about my progress. Thanks for showing interest. ~D

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Hi Nigedo, Noted and understood Nigedo, looking forward to seeing the progress of the Mod. As for the mod switcher, I really have no need of it, since I've been copy and pasting my vanilla. I have the XGM mod, RTR 6.0 and TFT 1.7 as well as vanilla.
~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by snevets

Doesn't the world standing of Crete make this concept farfetched? Crete wasn't united under one flag after Minoa fell.

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Indeed yes, very farfetched.:laugh:

In fact, by 300 BC, Crete comprised more than 100 small city states and it remained largely in a state of civil war until the Roman conquest in 67 BC (IIRC).

The best that can be said is that the cities of Crete fell into, more or less, a couple of loose federations by the mid second century BC. They were always fairly quick to band together in defense of the island against foreign invaders though, but that's not to be confused with any kind of real unity. :duel:

None of this is really relevant though, any more than having a Greek faction relates the truth about the various leagues of Hellenic cities that came and went over this period.

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Originally Posted by snevets

Maybe you should consider dividing the already small island of crete into two provinces, I think that will better simulate what you're looking for, a ridiculous level of difficulty. From the challenge point of view this looks promising.

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I'm wary of doing that for this mod. Adding a second province would just place more available territory on the player's doorstep and make their first conquest obvious. Yes, the challenge is what I want it to be about, really. ~:)

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Originally Posted by snevets

For Crete I'd like to know what units you plan on making. Will it be very similar to Greece? Archers will obviously play a major role, with maybe some thracian unit types and two unique hoplites, one regular and one elite. You might also consider just for realism a fast moving transport with high attack and low defense, to simulate the effects on technology piracy has had on the island. Good luck.

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I think you've pretty much outlined my own present ideas on the units, there. I am thinking about making pirates recruitable too, with the construction of ports. :bandana:

Your ship idea reminds of the privateer unit from Civ. I kind of like this idea. Might give that some more thought, thanks. :bow:

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Has anyone had any thoughts about what community mods I should include, or for which I should add compatability? What about skin or model replacers that are considered "standard"?

I remember the privateer. Didn't it piss you off though when your allies attacked them? Argh I hated that. Anyways its good to hear you're taking that direction.

About the provinces, my point is you could make it nearly impossible to conquer the other two cities. That way the territory would not be easily grabbed. Besides, The major task for the unlikely Cretian Empire would've been: unite Crete, this would be well reflected in the mod through impossible odds at conquering the other territories (ignore realism for a moment and make Crete larger, than divide it into 4 or 5 really crappy provinces. This accomplishes the goal of simulating a war to unite Crete, while avoiding the downside of creating an easy empire base). Consider also starting them at war, giving them loads more men than you etc.

In my last post I didn't want it to sound like I'd missed the point about the unlikely Empire's thing, I'm just saying how you need to simulate the unlikeliness effectively. Anyways continue on.

Damn Egyptians were always attacking my privateers...

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Originally Posted by snevets

About the provinces, my point is you could make it nearly impossible to conquer the other two cities. That way the territory would not be easily grabbed. Besides, The major task for the unlikely Cretian Empire would've been: unite Crete, this would be well reflected in the mod through impossible odds at conquering the other territories (ignore realism for a moment and make Crete larger, than divide it into 4 or 5 really crappy provinces. This accomplishes the goal of simulating a war to unite Crete, while avoiding the downside of creating an easy empire base). Consider also starting them at war, giving them loads more men than you etc.

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I like your ideas a lot, but I see some problems with implementing them.

Let's say we'll start with a Kydonian faction at war with Knossus and Gortyn. If we want to make the other two cities strong enough to resist Kydonia, they really need to be part of a full faction rather than controlled by rebels. This would encourage the AI to build in those cities effectively. So the problem becomes; to which faction should these cities belong? The player's faction is then going to be drawn into war with this (mainland) AI faction from the start of the campaign, removing some of the player's freedom to decide on their own initial invasion plan.

Ideally, the opposing cities would belong to another new small faction, also restricted to Crete, but this is impossible due to the limited number of faction slots available.

If I felt it was feasable to have them controlled by rebels and still put up a decent fight, then the idea would be workable. But, for example, I have never had a rebel city raise an army and lay seige to one of my own cities nearby. I don't think rebels are capable of this level of resistance?

A Gaelic faction in this time period would be interesting, to say the least. I'm surprised Ranika hasn't shown to banter all things Irish with you, but that isn't to say he won't.

I always loved the single-province factions in MTW and, quite honestly, I find the late period of any game (with many provinces, I mean) boring.

What kind of Goidilic troops will be available for recruitment? May I suggest that they also get a special ship unit? They were quite reknown for their piracy.

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Originally Posted by Nigedo

I am planning on having their unit lists behave the same way as in vanilla, with progression upon construction of the requisite recruitment buildings. Is there another way?

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Well, the easiest way is using hidden resources (like the Sparta hidden resource in vanilla) so as they expand into winter or desert areas different specialised troop types become available.

I'm suprised you've never seen nearby rebels lay siege to your cities, I'm pretty sure I have. At any rate it doesn't matter because they will attack you if you attack them. The ultimate thing about having them be strong rebels is that there will be no option for peace. All or nothing. Simultaneously you will still have mainland invasion freedom. Honestly I don't see the problem with rebels.

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

What kind of Goidilic troops will be available for recruitment?

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Hi NeonGod. The faction won't be strictly Goidelic, the period is more Laginian. But, to be honest, there wasn't much cultural difference between them.

What sort of units do you suggest? The only original unit I have thought about, so far, is some kind of "bata" or stick warband, perhaps like the Gaulish foresters. I am open to suggestions really. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Epistolary Richard

Well, the easiest way is using hidden resources (like the Sparta hidden resource in vanilla) so as they expand into winter or desert areas different specialised troop types become available.

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Ah, yes. I understand what you mean. There isn't really a background for this with these two 'factions'. I'll probably keep it predominantly to vanilla-style recruitment, although I was considering adding pirates as a coastal resource in a limited number provinces, for Cretan recruitment.

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Originally Posted by snevets

The ultimate thing about having them be strong rebels is that there will be no option for peace. All or nothing. Simultaneously you will still have mainland invasion freedom.

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I think the main reservation I have about increasing the island provinces is the changes it would mean to strategy. I want the strategic emphasis to be on managing a mainland invasion from a single island province, supported by one city and one port.

Any change to the domestic starting arrangement will eventually make the mainland invasion easier. Yes, the start may be more difficult. But once the island enemies have been overcome, the campaign will become significantly easier and begin to match the pace of ordinary vanilla campaigns like the Britons.

Three cities (and three ports) supporting a mainland invasion just doesn't appeal to me as much as one struggling province seeking a mainland foothold. ~:) The best proof will be in the playtesting later. We'll see. ~;)

Are not the tribes of Leinster still Goidils?

Well, Europa Barbarorum has already presented the public with a hammer-wielding, armour-bashing unit, but that would be, I think, something to include if the goal was to be as detailed as possible. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Goidilic military in this period, but I'm quite confident that javelin-throwing infantry (not skirmishers )were commonplace. Of course, my pirate suggestion still stands.

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Are not the tribes of Leinster still Goidils?

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If we use O'Rahilly's Historical Model, then the Goidels did not permeate the island until around 100 BC. This view is not universally accepted but, to be honest, the iron age history of Ireland is an academic nightmare, comprising broad conjectures interspersed with myth. ~:)

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

Well, Europa Barbarorum has already presented the public with a hammer-wielding, armour-bashing unit, but that would be, I think, something to include if the goal was to be as detailed as possible. I'm not very knowledgeable about the Goidilic military in this period, but I'm quite confident that javelin-throwing infantry (not skirmishers )were commonplace. Of course, my pirate suggestion still stands.

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You're right about the use of javelins, of course. Otherwise, I haven't completed sufficient research to begin compiling unit lists, so I can't say. If you have any more ideas, though, I'd love to hear them. Making the unit lists as original and novel as possible is a worthy pursuit.