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The 3rd of October will be a significant date that will both be a turning point for Turkey and EU and for EU internally.
I had requested a debate before about Turkey being a candidate for EU membership. I had also indicated that I am an anti-EU sider.
What's going on in your country about Turkey lately? We are getting daily reports about politicians intentions and declarations everyday. But I'd like to know what the recent thoughts in individual terms are.
This sentence can be taken in two ways :
1 - Oh Really ! Then our very ally US is still has sympathy towards us. How nice !
2 - Turkey being more important than old little Luxembourg? I guess we have a place above Andorra of the mountains, tiny throne of Liechtenstein, football-disabled San Marino.. I think our politicians should re-consider about our strategic partners.
Which one to choose, GC ?
:knight: :medievalcheers: :knight:
How many wars has Turkey fought on the side of the US?
Compare that with Australia and the US.
US still forgets about Australia... we don't get our knickers in a twist over that however.
Yes how long to Thanksgiving? ~;) ~D
Oh, that joke again..
C'mon, Americans have a sense of humor that I really like. You'll never get sick of that word prank, won't you ? ~D
I don't have an opinion on EU membership for Turkey. If Turkey satisfies the criteria, then why not? It's really not a U.S. matter so I'll just watch.
LeftEyeNine, the turkey joke might get really old, but if you've ever had a well prepared thanksgiving dinner you will understand the American fondness for referring to the bird when ever we get the chance. By the way, there was some effort to make the turkey our national bird (by Benjamin Franklin), but it was rejected in favor of the bald eagle.
On Turkey the country, with considerable reservations I think we have to move on with EU membership.
Frankly, she doesn't meet the criteria. She's not in Europe (yes, I know a tiny bit is) and she is way too poor. It took time to digest the Iberians and Greeks, now we have to digest Eastern Europe, we just aren't going to be ready any time soon for 80m million turks with a GDP per head of $7,400 (compare the UK at c.$30,000)
That said there are obvious global political reasons why inviting Turkey in at some point would make good sense and be in the EU's self interest too. So in my opinion we should continue to work to finding some way to have Turkey as a member, which in my view will require a pretty ferocious accession agreement dealing with phasing in free movement of people, compliance with EU law, access to EU structural funds, border control and much else besides
As for what is being said about this in the UK, absolutely nothing. Our government is strongly in favour of Turkey's application but the man on the street is wholly ignorant of it. Which is probably just as well, frankly.
I am aware about England's leadership among the countries that favor Turkey's EU membership. I do not understand why they go for it with such a strong manner, though.
What about France, Scandinavians, Germans or any other one, please ?
I think we shouldn't let Turkey in purely due to their poor human rights record-we could use membership as a carrot to encourage improvement in that area.
Apart from that, as EA says we need time to digest the Eastern European members before inviting in another country with a vastly different standard of living, which the current member states will have to pay to improve. Don't think I against the use if EU funds to improve the poorer members, I'm not, but this would be much too soon.
Left Eye Nine:
As with many other things, I agree with you on this.
on what, Taffy ?
(LEN is the abbreviation I generally use. Patrons, please, feel free to call me LEN. Easier I think.)
LEN:
Turkey/EU: basically every thing you've ever posted on it.
We hope it will annoy the French...Quote:
I am aware about England's leadership among the countries that favor Turkey's EU membership. I do not understand why they go for it with such a strong manner, though
As long as a country's secular laws can be replaced or dominated by religious laws, i think it has no place in Europe.
I think Turkey has a long way to do before it can reach this point as military dictatorship seems to be the only element that can prevent such a regression.
So, Turkey in Europe, yes, but not before it can prove it's secular and democratic permanent attachement : it is not exactly Vatican and Vatican's theocracy is already too much.
Come on, you don't mean it?Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
Now, you know, Germans will be much more annoyed than us by Turkey and you know what happens when both France and Germany are annoyed by something?
Yes, they do world wars to each other to solve the problem.
As we win only about 50 % of those wars, this is not a very interesting bet to take and since we (almost) won last time, it shall be their turn for this one!
You don't want to see us losing another war do you?
How stupid am i, of course you do, you perfidious Brit!
But for this one, you shall miss your point!
For you will be the ennemy, this will change things a bit for once!
And we will be with the krauts!
You do not stand a chance!
Two third world nations, Britain and Turkey, opposed to the shining superior glory of France and the quite not so bad Germany - let us be condescending(?) a bit, they deserve it - with Putin's Russia that would cut it's own throat rather than helping Turkey, the ready to kill everyone balkanic countries to block the turks, you are done!
We can cross the channel by foot, reaction time of your western protector are so slow that British population's mother tongue will be french and german before they notice anything, no, i do not see anything to help you to counter the crushing defeat you will have to face.
After that we will simply have to deport the whole population of Turkey in your island and everybody will be happy, no kurds, no armenians, no english, so great!
So i say, for the common good, vote 'no' to Turkey in the union and make the brits vote 'yes'!
Hem.
I do not drink enough wine these times i suppose.
But Petrus, Turkey's status as a secular state is second only to France's, in terms of the law. I know there have been interventions by the military to prevent democratically expressed islamic wishes taking root, but don't you see the introduction of Turkey into the EU as a way of bolstering the secular tradition in Turkey? In other words, what you put as a precondition might in fact be acheivable only as an outcome?
Its might also trigger some useful reappraisals within the EU, for example in the UK, abolishing church schools, removing protection of expression of religious belief from the ECHR, and so on.
We ALWAYS are the enemy, its just in the past we have been on your side as the enemy. Just ask De Gaulle.Quote:
But for this one, you shall miss your point!
For you will be the ennemy, this will change things a bit for once
Anyway, actually I was rather hoping we could have the Germans this time. The past two times have shown they are pretty tasty customers so I think its our turn to have them. Also the Turks and the Germans should be on the same side, as in 1916, otherwise the Americans will get very confused. You can have the Americans, which should be very amusing in its own right, and of course they will be a few years late.
What!!???Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
Are you guys starting all over again!!???
Where did I put that Green Card?... :brood:
Last I read about Turkey was some bitching about that Onur Air business, apparently people are being snide about the whole thing.
As for joining the EU, I don't think it should bite off more than it can chew. Adding all those new eastern european countries was a stretch and I really don't think the EU is ready for a nation like Turkey, along with all it's political baggage. Though I can't really imagine the EU leaders having the guts to stop the process this late in.
I have already read this argument, from Michel Rocard, a very strong europhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by English assassin
I know Turkey is a very strictly secular country, but it still appears as potentially religious-based, as the role of the army in the institutions show it.
I do not think the adhesion to Europe would help it concerning secularism, just look at the actual charia-wanabe government they have.
Contrary to other political parties existing in Europe such as the CDU in Germany, islamic parties have a religious written law thay can promote at least inside their own borders.
As long as this remain possible, i think Turkey shall be outside and work at it, on a democratic basis, without military interference.
I know, i know, it is just that you have a bit below the average slaughtering level on the continent for the last six hundred years so i forgot a bit.Quote:
We ALWAYS are the enemy, its just in the past we have been on your side as the enemy. Just ask De Gaulle.
De Gaulle has been dead for a while and his - theoretical - heir is Chirac so i ask you, would you trust Chirac more than one second if he wished you, say, a good day?
You CHEATER!Quote:
Anyway, actually I was rather hoping we could have the Germans this time. The past two times have shown they are pretty tasty customers so I think its our turn to have them. Also the Turks and the Germans should be on the same side, as in 1916, otherwise the Americans will get very confused. You can have the Americans, which should be very amusing in its own right, and of course they will be a few years late.
We didn't have the Germans with us since Napoleon and they turned their weapons against us in the end so it doesn't count!
It is absolutely out of question to let them side with you, we would have to take someone else and it would be too short to be worth playing.
No, let us make three parties : you keep the Turks so that the balkanic ones can have a bit of fun, this will distract them from their civil wars, a very good thing for Europe, and Germany and France play for themselves.
The winner takes the americans when they arrive, after some times, so that they finish the business as usual.
Turkey? I didn't even know that it was planning to join the EU : British media have stayed away from the matter as far as I can tell. There are never, or rarely articles about it in the national papers, let alone the Courier ; Auntie seems to care much for a quick broadcast on neither radio nor televion nor t'internet.
Frankly, I do not think that Turkey does not fit the requirements for membership. It is certainly quite poor ; insists on claiming half of Cyprus, something which it shall have to stop ; and, of course, the small matter of its continent, since only Constantinople and some little places to the north and west thereof are part of this glorious peninsula of Europe
Well, the poltical party in power AKP has a cadre consisted of islamically enthusiast politicans once. However, they gave unbelievably moderate views of Islam before the last elections that Turkish nation gave them a chance. The political power had been possessed by the same parties who wasted the whole time and financial power of Turkey when they were the governors for years. So that for the last 2-3 elections Turkish nation tried new or ever-tried-before poltical parties. Examples may be MHP + DSP coalition in 1999 (nationalist party + Cyprus hero Ecevit's left wing party ) or the newly founded political party of a former media giant Cem Uzan's GP had won the %7 of the total votes in last election. However, his whole power is destroyed by AKP after the elections. Uzan family does not even possess any companies in Turkey anymore.
And AKP gathered a significant level of votes (%34.43), long awaited CHP getting %19.41 (founded by Ataturk as the sole party) in elections of 2002.
3-4 days ago, in Istanbul, a fanatic religious group gathered after leaving the mosque who showed their support for a fanatic Islamic terror organization Hizb-ut Tahrir. The policemen only watched the group instead of endind their fanaticism. So many critics - by prime minister Erdogan as well - were directed towards the policemen's indifferent attitude. All newspares headlined the news with "Radical Islamic manifest in the middle of Istanbul!".
The army's effect can not be limited to a powerless state unless this fanatic Islamic threat is eliminated. They have been our fuse against such chaotic threats before although they several times had to damage the democratic progress of Turkey. If we give up on them, Turkey will be a playground for these so called "spider brains" (Islamic fanatics are called this way in Turkey).
I guess by that measure the UK is non-European entirely. Which it is, my friend, I would not dispute that for a minute. The BBC does pay attention to Turkey's EU membership bid occasionally. Turkey is the big blob at the bottom on the right hand side of the map.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Malcolm
Sorry but it is internationally Istanbul for the last 552 years. We call it "Londra" in Turkish, but it is London internationally. That's not a matter of Greek - Turkish conflict, that's a political and geographical fact.Quote:
Frankly, I do not think that Turkey does not fit the requirements for membership. It is certainly quite poor ; insists on claiming half of Cyprus, something which it shall have to stop ; and, of course, the small matter of its continent, since only Constantinople and some little places to the north and west thereof are part of this glorious peninsula of Europe
Cyprus issue totally belongs to another topic for a debate. I won't be attempting anything before I gather stabel and reliable information about the history of the matter.
Britain is an island off the coast of mainland Europe, Turkey is Asia Minor, with a little triangle of land at the bottom right of the map.
Sorry, I just think Constantinople is a much nicer name than Istanbul.
Turkey is a growing part of the European economy and the European community of states and brings with it a cultural inheritance that will benefit us all. Britain is America Minor. It doesn't even have a small triangle anywhere except in Ireland, which it should leave in the same way Turkey should leave Cyprus.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Malcolm
:book:
The majority of denmark dont want Turkey in the EU simply because you are a moslem country.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftEyeNine
Heh, in France, everyone forgot Turkey, the EU and all that things a few months ago.
So to sum up,
Europe and USA are going through an amnesia. I hope that's not epidemic..
LEN:
Istanbul has only been the official name since the early 20th century.
That's why so many incentives were given. The government wants to stabilize the welfare of the country.
Turkey has a very strange economical pattern among others. The countries that face crisis like ours were generally driven into social disruption as it happened the way in South America. People were only complaining about extreme poverty when it was 2001, a very severe crisis was suffered.
What's more Turkey somehow provides an economic growth, free from the economical state it is in..
That, however, never improves the purchase power simultaneously.
I told you, our economic pattern is really strange..
I may also predict that free pass granted after EU membership will empty one seventh of this country, which would be a serious situation for EU countries to handle. However this would be a first moments shock, by time that Turkey's welfare increases, the population movement will come into balance...
But I still do not want an EU membership :)