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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Governmental eavesdropping of all Internet traffic, telephone conversations, etc. etc.
Ha yes, this is happening here too, but it's mostly because of the lack of regulation. Though i think that the information in all it's ways should be not regulated, unless it's regulated in a permisive way.
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- The police has right to shoot first then ask questions
Well, luckily, this is not happening here, though it's irrational, this is a problem of executive power, the representers of formal democracy are really on the legislative power, wich are not responsable for this, well i think that the case of Britain is different though. In any case is a syntom that has to be removed of society (paranoia) but the modern government doesn't know how to fight effectively against this phenomenum, thus it gives space to the executive power to do whatever they believe necessary. I think that this is something happening world wide, here where the system is more similar to USA, the executive power is constantly overruling the power of the congress to create the rules.
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- "Terrorists", according to the leader's definitions, whichever they happen to be, can be interrogated and sentenced without public court procedures. That includes SENTENCING THEM TO DEATH!
Another consecuense of paranoia and lack of true response.
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- UN and others have now agreed that agitation in favor of "terrorism" is to be considered a crime and should be punished. The definition of "terrorism" is getting closer and closer to "enemy of the current sitting government", and the definition of "agitation" seems to get closer and closer to "protesting against the current government".
This is totally nuts, I didn't know about this, but this is going way to far. There're basic rights recognised by the international community one of them is the right to life and freedom, all statutes must follow this guidence.
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- Books and CDs of authors and musicians critical to the regime have been burned in the USA on various occasions. Not by officials, but the lack of punishment for the guilty of the deeds cleary says something
Well that's internal politics, but it's clearly in fault of the First Emendment. Sometimes the government "forgets" and also some other people (conservatives?) that this document is above all others, for instance it's in fault to the very nation formed over that constitution, this is happening with a lot of things, censure on the media, drugs, etc. all are signals of less democracy, at least less formal democracy, because there's no true democracy while there's an state anyway.
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- Almost impossible to start new political parties. The USA, for example, can never hope to get anything else than Democrats or Republicans as presidents.
Well that's an acceptable form of representation, many authors coincide that this is the best way to organize the elections and representation in itself. I disagree, hopefully we here have multipartidist system, though it really doesn't do much. But i disagree with you this has nothing to do with democracy, it's the same formality to have two parties (and a third with less possibilities) as to have a thousand.
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- After Bush's speeches about a terrorism threat that is less than ten times as big as the threat of committing suicide because of tristesse and pain caused by society, and almost a hundred times smaller than the risk of being shot by a patriotic, friendly American, several countries who were formerly known as democracies have followed the example of Bush and are removing the people's rights in several areas, including what you say, what you print and what you think.
I never followed Bush speeches (hell i don't have to) but seems like he's more stupid or more manipulator than he seemed. But wich nations followed that example? ~:confused:
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- The Berlusconi disguised dictatorship regime of Italy controls both Mass media, much of the economical market of Italy, AND the political power. Similar systems are actually existing also in the USA (Bush has close contacts to various oil companies etc.), and might soon start to exist in other countries as well.
Money has much power as it's the direct control of regulation and budget, this is a direct problem of the state, and even if you recover all the others this will continue to happen.
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- The false propaganda of calling it a war on terrorism or fighting of foreign dictators is quite transparent, if the way this is done is by making your own countries dictatorship regimes. This is in the same class as the communist and nazi propaganda of ww2. However, the modern skills in propaganda are more advanced. Now both sides, also the dissenters, get to say what they think in mass media, but through insinuation and small hints they are ridiculed and presented as cruel.
Well the propaganda cannot be considered on detriment of democracy, it's the same right to free speech. The truth is that also true information should be running along with the false to have a balance, but i agree if the state is the one launching this propaganda projects it should be considered anti-democratic, the state has at least in a formal democracy, the duty to inform their citizens.
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After all, the "democracy" of ancient Greece, which is said to be the starting point behind the modern democracy, ended pretty quickly when the oppressed/poor were no longer as much needed by the rich/the oppressors, and it degraded into a standard dictatorship regime. Is the same thing happening with the western world too?
Honestly, to me democracy and all the idea of sociable man and society ended with the conquests of Rome. From then on never a true democracy has been experienced. Greece was the first and the last, even considering that certain people didn't have the right to citicenship. On the other hand Rome brought better and rational law, but this doesn't say nothing about democracy anyway.
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This will certainly in the long term put the western countries at a disadvantage compared to other countries, especially the rising economical powers of southeast Asia. Furthermore, the countries struck by the colonialism and imperialism will probably use this weakening to strike the western world, which will harm the innocent countries too. Strictly speaking, all who live today are innocent of the crimes committed back then, but formerly oppressed nations never look at it that way. In fact, it's very likely this removal of democracy in western world will result in the most extremistic muslim groups, such as Al quaeda, will end up ruling western world as well. This is not desirable. It's best for both Muslims and Christians if Christians leave Muslims alone and have their own territory to live by their own laws, while Muslims leave Christians alone and have their own territoriy to live by their own laws. However, this move caused by naive Christian leaders fearing Islamic faith and having a fascistic view on it, may cause exactly what they fear most - muslim control over Europe and the USA. This will of course result in Israel losing it's important ally the USA, and it's likely it'll end up being conquered.
I disagree to me the leaders are all but naive. The states of the western culture will never fall by this, because this just makes them more strong, what will fall if this continues is the idea of society and the respect for the rights of the individual, gained through much too blood to let i go so easily. The case of Israel begun far before of todays facts, they should never ask for help to exercise the force over a territory that legitimally belonged to the Palestinians.
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So the possible results of this removal of democracy in the western world will result in 1. foreign military threats that weren't threats before will grow into real threats,
Not so sure about this.
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2. economy of the western world will decline
I disagree, in fact it will become more strong in this matter, because the strong state will favour the capitalists wich will keep functioning the system at a low cost, oppressing the masses even more than before.
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3. Judeo-Christian-atheistic culture, law and lifestyle might be replaced by sharia and muslim lifestyle. I personally don't mind the Islamic lifestyle or religion, and like several aspects of Islam more than Judeo-Christian-atheistic values, but I personally dislike the Islamic law, which, as I've understood it, is in favor of harsh punishments.
Well though i don't know all the legislative system of the Islam, USA still allows death penalty.
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Christian extremist leaders who don't tolerate that muslims live their way in their home countries are no better than Muslim terrorists (Al qaeda) who don't tolerate Christian lifestyle in Christian home countries.
I agree, and I also think that Christianity in any case has much more power and capacity of response that anyother religion in it's institutions.
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Of course, removing democracy in order to "fight terrorism" is exactly what the terrorists want, and the more democratic rights that are removed, the more the terrorists will keep bombing and killing, because removal of democracy serves their purposes. Not the purposes of the entire muslim world, which is a lot more cultivated than the few actual terrorists, but the purposes of the less than one percent extremists.
Maybe, i don't believe that the extremists leaders have that purpose, i think that they only do it with the objective of plain and simple fear.
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Finally, will George Bush end up in the history books as "the man who took the initiative towards destruction of democracy?" After all, his speeches as actions is what has caused several other western governments to abandon democracy in several fields.
No i don't think so, but it will have a bad quote in USA books at least.
