BI issues answered... Got it

To my surprise I actually found a store selling BI. Well, it isn't really that much of a surprise as I have previously gotten MTW and VI early from them.
When I had picked it up I kindly asked the clerk if its wasn't supposed to get out the 30th. He answered that he did know but would check up on it.
It turns out that he couldn't find anything saying that for their store, and it had in fact been out for a few days.
Now we are counting Tuesday today, so a few days to me sounds like Friday last week, but it could just have been yesterday. I didn't go further to ask if they had a licence for that as I quite wanted it. But to me it sounded like they did indeed have a right to sell it, and given their usual history of beating the usual deadlines with no problems I think it is a good bet.

Anyway, I'm off to try out the game.
I will come back to comment on these issues, and more:

AI in battle and on strategic map (can only be brief with the strategic map).
Charge of cavalry against infantry.
Horse archers shooting while moving (I suppose the bug is fixed)
Save-bug
and if I can I will check up on naval AI.

Post any non-screenshot related questions.

Btw, if you are fearing the pagan symbol, don't. It isn't the pentagram, but rather a Yen symbol.

Could you test wether AI archers start shooting at maximum distance or wether they still charge before the other infantry? I found these one of the greatest flaws in the tactical AI as a proper missile war was rarely being fought.

Cheers,
DJ

Another lucky dawg....

Good Luck! Now I see what stopped Manstein's attack ~;)

As I read through the manual I found the explaination for the quick out game.
The manual was swedish. Apparently they had ordered the game at the smae place as everyone else, and since it was a big order it was shipped well in advance.
No big surprise there though as the other early games have been American. They really use everything they can to get in front.

Anyway to the issues at hand.

The stategic AI seems to be a little better at keeping the family members in the armies, but having only played a few years it isn't a great statistical background. Many members start in control of armies.

In battle the AI is still easy to outmaneuver, sadly. They do not try to block you as you try to force them off the high ground. That is the same.
But the generals do indeed stay back, and are only deploye at the critical time. A battle with the Sarmatians as the Eastern Empire I fought their armies in a bloody advance. Pushes them back and they kept coming. Bloody indeed. Finally my troops were tired and the two family members charged my troops. They ground them into the earth and eventually even killed my own family member. It was a horrific loss.

Cavalry chages have been seriously nerfed. In a Custom Battle I charged a unit of Cataphracts (Clibanarii are different, but you'll see) into a unit of Limitanei. In RTW such a matchup would result in a catastrophic destruction of the spearmen at the first charge. That didn't happen. In fact only 4 spearmen were flung backwards. They eventually lost horribly, but they withstood the charge admirably.

Tested it a few times with other cavalries and spearmen and even runaway slaves managed to stand up to cavalry charges fairly well, and they made mincemeat out of Equites Auxilia (lowest rank of Eastern cavalry, but still quite good).
But it should be noted that the highest chargebonus I have noticed is 10... So obviously the problem with the armour playing in on the charge has been solved.
It is worth pointing out that a charge in the rear is just as devastating as one would expect.

Haven't met enough ships to form an oppion on the naval AI.

Horse arcehrs do indeed shoot on the move (if they hadn't fixed that I would have gone crazy).

The save-bug is fixed, or so I figured when the Sassanids didn't break off their siege of Caesarea and eventually did assault me (but their lousy infantry got creamed though).

Archers do seem to be more 'passive' now. Had an early battle against the Sassanids (they didn't like I took a stroll in their lands apparently), and their slingers and archers held back nice a firm, and eventually took out my infantry with flanking shots (slingers). So the AI is better all in all, but certain aspects have not been improved.

A few nice things:
Hired generals (simply trained bodyguard unit) can't keep your lineage alive.
Items and titles grant loyalty (return to MTW here)
Some new speeches. I noticed one of my general talking about "the road to victory is paved with skulls". Hadn't heard that one before.
The Eastern Empire has a most powerful selection of troops.
The mercs are quite varied, from Veteranii (old legionaries) to the usual horse archers of the east.
The fewer cities means a lot more field battles.
Western Roman Rebels popped up in the second turn (GAH!), and the Eastern Rebels were not that far behind had I not acted decisively.
It is difficult choice between christianity and paganism, at least to me.

Very interesting post, Kraxis. I like the sound of what has happened to cavalry. Tastes may vary, but it sounds about right. (Rather MTWish).

Is (good) archery still as devastating as in vanilla? (I recall shredding an attacking full Roman army with four archer auxilia on a hill).

I wonder if the reduced number of provinces makes the strategic AI any more focussed and formiddable? Also, do they benefit from starting off with bigger initial armies? I'm guessing that in BI the factions start off with more men than in RTW, so it's more a case of "good to go" than lots of building and a slow climb up the tech tree.

It does sound better. The comment about runaway slaves standing up to cav sounds a bit suspect though (unless they're some kinda special unit and not peasant-like.

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Originally Posted by SpencerH

It does sound better. The comment about runaway slaves standing up to cav sounds a bit suspect though (unless they're some kinda special unit and not peasant-like.

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Well, they survived, but their losses were heavy. They are a large unit in horde formation (not to confuse withhorde units) so their footprint was very big. The poor equites are good, but they are really rather light and not suitable to beat up spearmen.
They did a good show I think.

Archers are also nerfed. At best I have seen 7 as a missile attack for archers, so no more machinegun Foresters. But archers is of course still effective. Losses can be rather substantial, but nothing like before. It could be argued it isn't enough of a nerf, but at least something was done. And most archers are very weak in melee. We are talking basic archers of RTW in capabilities.

I tested a few more battles... Boy was I in for a treat. The concerned historical crowd won't like this.

Lombardii Berserkers are really wild! First of all, they are giants, about a head taller than everybody else (great potential for modders I guess), naked upper body of course, and they carry massive twohanded swords with a big handle, almost a polearm.
They look the stuff of legends, but in combat they still surprise.
32 of these giants ripped a Levy Spearmen (big) unit to pieces with three losses. If they aren't interrupted they will perform a special melee attack where they sort of whirl and advance into the enemy formation. This sends the enemies flying like if they were hit by a chariot. That Levy Spearmen unit was destroyed in 20 seconds if not less.
Further these guys have warcry, but that makes them go into heroic morale (uncontrollable) and charges whatever they like. The same happens as soon as you attack with them.
So, don't send large weak units against them, especially not if they are very dense.

I though they were increadibly scary (and wondered if others had a similar giant unit). So I tested them and the Golden Band (not too good a unit) against some Saxon Hearth and Chosen Axemen. Surprise!!!
The Berserkers where limited in their maneuvers because they got interrupted all the time. Suddenly they ere just another good unit (but of very small size). At least they fought to the death. So it seems they are far from overpowered, but you need special tactics to deal with them (besides missiles).

Also tested the Burgundian Lancers. Now there we have a unit we can remember. Their charge was devastating, but their melee capabilities left a lot to be desired. Their charge bonus was 10. So I see a fine line here. The good chargers lack the strength to fight it out later on, and their charge isn't strong enough to win instantly. Meanwhile the strong cavalry (like Cataphracts and Clibanarii) don't have the thundering charge but will eventually win against most infantry. Tried it out against Comitatenses and it was a firm victory for the Cataphracts, in fact they split the legionaries up into small groups that were more easily handled. Yet the Comitatenses lasted until only a handful remained, andthe melee was prolongend and very furious. The Cataphracts were basically locked down in this fight for a long while.

Lastly, Wedge seems to be better now. But don't use it with weak cavalry. I nearly punched through the Comitatenses with Cataphracts. So I wonder what the Burgundians could do with it.

Foot archers have no missile attack greater than 7, eh? Is the same true of horse archers?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Well, they survived, but their losses were heavy. They are a large unit in horde formation (not to confuse withhorde units) so their footprint was very big. The poor equites are good, but they are really rather light and not suitable to beat up spearmen.
They did a good show I think.

Archers are also nerfed. At best I have seen 7 as a missile attack for archers, so no more machinegun Foresters. But archers is of course still effective. Losses can be rather substantial, but nothing like before. It could be argued it isn't enough of a nerf, but at least something was done. And most archers are very weak in melee. We are talking basic archers of RTW in capabilities.

I tested a few more battles... Boy was I in for a treat. The concerned historical crowd won't like this.

Lombardii Berserkers are really wild! First of all, they are giants, about a head taller than everybody else (great potential for modders I guess), naked upper body of course, and they carry massive twohanded swords with a big handle, almost a polearm.
They look the stuff of legends, but in combat they still surprise.
32 of these giants ripped a Levy Spearmen (big) unit to pieces with three losses. If they aren't interrupted they will perform a special melee attack where they sort of whirl and advance into the enemy formation. This sends the enemies flying like if they were hit by a chariot. That Levy Spearmen unit was destroyed in 20 seconds if not less.
Further these guys have warcry, but that makes them go into heroic morale (uncontrollable) and charges whatever they like. The same happens as soon as you attack with them.
So, don't send large weak units against them, especially not if they are very dense.

I though they were increadibly scary (and wondered if others had a similar giant unit). So I tested them and the Golden Band (not too good a unit) against some Saxon Hearth and Chosen Axemen. Surprise!!!
The Berserkers where limited in their maneuvers because they got interrupted all the time. Suddenly they ere just another good unit (but of very small size). At least they fought to the death. So it seems they are far from overpowered, but you need special tactics to deal with them (besides missiles).

Also tested the Burgundian Lancers. Now there we have a unit we can remember. Their charge was devastating, but their melee capabilities left a lot to be desired. Their charge bonus was 10. So I see a fine line here. The good chargers lack the strength to fight it out later on, and their charge isn't strong enough to win instantly. Meanwhile the strong cavalry (like Cataphracts and Clibanarii) don't have the thundering charge but will eventually win against most infantry. Tried it out against Comitatenses and it was a firm victory for the Cataphracts, in fact they split the legionaries up into small groups that were more easily handled. Yet the Comitatenses lasted until only a handful remained, andthe melee was prolongend and very furious. The Cataphracts were basically locked down in this fight for a long while.

Lastly, Wedge seems to be better now. But don't use it with weak cavalry. I nearly punched through the Comitatenses with Cataphracts. So I wonder what the Burgundians could do with it.

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BI RULESSSS!!!!!!!! ~D

Hi, just wondering, does anyone know if factions can be added now?

How to install BI - with or with out 1.2 ? :hide:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Archers are also nerfed. At best I have seen 7 as a missile attack for archers, so no more machinegun Foresters. But archers is of course still effective.

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Sounds good. I wonder, does BI come with a sort of 1.3 patch to the vanilla game? If so, are the major changes you describe in the power of cavalry and archers "backdated" to affect the main campaign? [EDIT: ie are the unit stats for vanilla units altered to be in line with their BI counterparts.] Or are we going to have to live with overpowered cav and archers in the main game, but have a better balance in the BI sub-game?

Sounds like some good new features with some bad new units. But units should be easy to mod out of the game. So far it sounds like BI is overall an improvement to RTW. Please do post more when you have the time Kraxis :bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

The fewer cities means a lot more field battles.

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You know, I've been wondering if the mods people are making that push right up to the 200 province limit might not be going in the wrong direction. Maybe CA got this right. I'd rather see more decisive fields battles followed by fewer sieges in my campaigns.

When it comes to the number of provinces, I'm not certain that more is better.

But I won't have BI for a couple more days, so I guess the proof will be in the playing...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Foot archers have no missile attack greater than 7, eh? Is the same true of horse archers?

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No, actually there are a few with 9, one of which are the Eastern Archers of the Eastern Empire.
The only bowarmed unit with a missile attack of over 10 is the Sassanid general with 11. A few horse archers including the Hun Elite have 9 while most have 8.

Meanwhile the infantry with missiles are dominated by the Roman infantry with up to 11 among the First Cohorts and Plumbatarii. Even the Francisca is only rated at 6.

Kerns will make a spectacular return alongside the famous Gallowglasses (bring on the complaints here). The Kerns are going to be one of three dedicated skirmishers, so apparently CA heard about the lack of use for that type of troops. But these skirmishers are all three fairly good.

Sadly there isn't a single javelinarmed cavalry.

Also, it seems I was a bit hasty with the Wedge. It works wonders at times, but most often it simply doesn't get anywhere. The cavalry unit will run in place and slowly push into the unit. So apparently it was suppoed to be better.

Btw, cavalry push all infantry back with a vengeance, even if losing badly.

Horse archers work and have a higher attack than foot archers in a game that features the Huns. Christmas comes early for Doug. :santa3:

Does Cantabrian Circle still make HA largely immune to foot archers?

Kraxis any chance of seeing whether AI phalanx armies still break up on approach? e.g. start a vanilla campaign and force a fight between say Greeks and Macedons. It's a long shot, as I don't believe there are phalanxes in BI, but personally I'd put improving phalanx AI near the top of my "to improve list" (it's hard coded whereas cav and archers were already nerfed by modders)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Sounds good. I wonder, does BI come with a sort of 1.3 patch to the vanilla game? If so, are the major changes you describe in the power of cavalry and archers "backdated" to affect the main campaign? [EDIT: ie are the unit stats for vanilla units altered to be in line with their BI counterparts.] Or are we going to have to live with overpowered cav and archers in the main game, but have a better balance in the BI sub-game?

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3rd Book of Expansion, verse 13-15
Rejoice in the glory that CA has showered upon thee;
for they told him "nay, the cavalry and archers shallt not stay the same. We haveth nerfeth them, so they no longer hold Our charges back."
And he said "Praise to thee!"
And they said "nay for we work for thyne money." So said they left the world in bevilderment. But he yelled after them "when shallt you return?" And they answereth "as soon as the money floweth."
Free of this burden the patrons were happy.

Well, I can tell you this much. Companions were bested by Libyan Spearmen head on, and Cataphracts were losing (but they had a fluke of advantage and won). A lot of former powerhouses on horses are seriously nerfed in charges. Praetorians, Sacred Band and Legionary cavalry have a mere 6 in chargebonus, both Cats and Comps have 9.
So no more sweeping the field with cavalry, or at least as easily.
Oh and you are going to like this: No more jumping horses!!!!

Foresters have 11 in missile, while Cretans have a mere 7 (the same as the normal archers ~:confused:), they are clearly underpowered now. Pharaoh's are now at 10. All else are below 10.

I can't remember the pilum missile values, but Bull Warriors are 17, Urbans 18 and most others have 13 (Hastati 11 though).

Slingers are perhaps buffed? Vanilla is 4 and mercs are 9. Pretty nice there now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

3rd Book of Expansion, verse 13-15

Oh and you are going to like this: No more jumping horses!!!!

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Great! Another big complaint scratched off the list!

On the same track as my prior comment, I guess its reasonable for a cav unit to lose cohesion and effectiveness while fighting 'a horde' but I would expect 'a horde' to lose morale more quickly than trained soldiers. It does seem to me that you're saying that cav are much less effective against melee units than one might expect in 'reality'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Kraxis any chance of seeing whether AI phalanx armies still break up on approach? e.g. start a vanilla campaign and force a fight between say Greeks and Macedons. It's a long shot, as I don't believe there are phalanxes in BI, but personally I'd put improving phalanx AI near the top of my "to improve list" (it's hard coded whereas cav and archers were already nerfed by modders)

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Did a couple of Custom Battles. Me Julii with three of each of the three pre-Marian legionaries, and a general against 3 Hoplites, 3 Armoured Hoplites, 3 Heavy Peltasts and a general.

The hoplites presented nice front on the advance. They tried to keep their places. Sadly their general was a bit foolish and just before he engagement he ended up standing in front of the battleline. My Hastati made quick work of his unit with their pila. But the hoplites advanced relentlessly on me and kept their facing. But with six phalanxes and three Hastati, the swordmen ended up in the small gaps. This got he hoplites turning inwards on each other, creating three chevrons. I used that to my advantage while my Hastati were ripped to pieces.
So I would like to think the AI has gotten better, but so far I don't know. At least it doesn't redeploy right in front of me.

Just too bad I have suffered several cases of the 'infantry-cavalry' sickness on some enemy infantry. They charge in, fight a while, then pull back and recharge. Not good.

Neither is the fact that during my test of the Cantabrian Circle, the enemy archers didn't stop to shoot at me. Well, as long as it is only when there is only one unit.

Quote:

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No more jumping horses!!!!

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Even I, a cavalry nut, am VERY pleased about this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpencerH

Great! Another big complaint scratched off the list!

On the same track as my prior comment, I guess its reasonable for a cav unit to lose cohesion and effectiveness while fighting 'a horde' but I would expect 'a horde' to lose morale more quickly than trained soldiers. It does seem to me that you're saying that cav are much less effective against melee units than one might expect in 'reality'.

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The horde formation is more open, but not that much. There isn't room for cavalrymen to move about inside it. And since the cavalry push so hard the formations is quickly compressed and then it is strong.

I'm getting a kick out of the irony here.

R:TW is set in an era when disciplined infanty was dominant. Yet in the game, cavalry ruled all.

BI is based on the era when cavalry became ascendent, but now the cavalry is weaker.

Still, it all sounds like a lot of steps in the right direction.

How does the horde thing work?

If you lose all your cities you get a horde?

Or is it a button that you press and you get hordes from all your cities, but you then lose them on the next turn?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

So no more sweeping the field with cavalry, or at least as easily.
Oh and you are going to like this: No more jumping horses!!!!

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There is hope for multiplayer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinus

How does the horde thing work?

If you lose all your cities you get a horde?

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Yup. Your entire population turns into Peasants primarely, but also a lot of interesting units. Some are specifically for the Horde others are merely copies of real units (but weaker in general).

Btw, the Hounds of Culann are also giants and have the same whirling attack. So beware of the Culann and the Berserkers. Kill them from afar.

Now I think I will go and start a real campaign (the last one I really neglected everythough outside the battlezones).

just wondering:

how many units does each faction get?
are there new units for vanilla RTW?

Also, have you had a look at the Romano British yet? what sort of units do they get?
Did they end up being made playable or not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Horse archers work and have a higher attack than foot archers in a game that features the Huns. Christmas comes early for Doug. :santa3:

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I'll second that ~;)
Thank you Kraxis, for your in depth information ~:)
Judging by these comments it sounds like BI is everything I was expecting it to be. Like Doug, I have always enjoyed employing many cav units, even in STW but I was never happy with their dominance of the field in RTW. A strong cav charge is good and so is the fact that they get stifled even if they eventually win. It seems that CA have come closer to the ideal, with balanced armies being the way to approach the game. Excellent news and a big 'Thank You' to CA for this. The few 'silly' units is something that has always been a part of the game and something that has always been easily remedied.

On a new note, how does the MP Lobby look? Has this been improved - as in more user friendly?

......Orda

Ok... Just to show the Berserkers in action against some Comitatenses.

The evil men...
https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/...kers0014kp.jpg

Contact! Or rather right after contact.
https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/...kers0031sc.jpg

Kickass!
https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/...kers0067cj.jpg

Seconds before victory... Just after the unit got its chevron.
https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/...kers0101do.jpg

And a few answers:
Orda, I haven't got an ID for Gamespy, never played MP for RTW (never felt like it), so I don't know.
And I wouldn't say the game is perfect, not at all. But a lot of stuff just seems better now. Also the speed of combat is slightly lower since most units are now much strong in defence than in attack.

Taffy, the Romano-British aren't playable on the campaign map, their territory is held by the Western Empire (363AD remember). But they might come forth from the darkness soon enough.
They are playable in MP and Custom Battle though. Their selection of units is rather balanced I would say. They have it all more or less, but the selection is rather limited.