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I am Sicily and I was some 30 years in war with Byzantium. They had superior generals (at least 4-5 stars to 8) and they always went in battle with at least 4 kataproktais who almost always root my whole armies. I killed them with Egyptians help from east. Always kataproktais winning easily even when they go up to hill and they are surrounded with italian infantry and my royal knights.
Missles lots of missles. Missles cav works even better as Kataproktai are slow.
Ordinary bows are probably not that good against kats, but arbalests, longbows and javelins etc are pretty good (not sure if they are all AP but they feel like it).
Italian spears should be able to hold the kats for a while, then you need something to kill them. Either a rear charge with your own knights or some infantry with AP. Halberdiers, even urban militia in a pinch.
Sometimes the Byzantines are just too strong to defeat in a single battle. In that case, whittle down their heavy cavalry in successive battles. Missiles are perfect for this - your whole melee army (cheap spears etc) can rout, but if you micromanage it, your missiles can keep firing until the bitter end. Often you can buy back your missiles, but the kats stay dead.
I think there's a guide on this (up in guides, where else). It was called something like 'how to kill high valour Kataproktai' or somthing similar. I believe the thread even has a replay how it should be done.
It involved two units of horsearchers (mounted xbows are preferred) to tire and shoot up the unit of kataproktoi.
I found the link:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=31627
I see 3 units of jinettes were used
What hapenned to katank?
Camels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by m52nickerson
In my current Egypt campaighn I use that tactic - 6 desert archers fire on kataphraktoi + faris merc + 2 bulgarian brigands merc.
Simon Appleton - Arbalesters are not aviable before 1204 and longbow merc, too.
Today in Egypt campaighn - I killed whole unit with archers but one (Byzantium Emperor - 8 stars) fought against camel warriors (my generall - 6 stars), Gulham bodyguard (prince) + 2 Italian Infantry on hill and he alone routed my general and whole army routed after that - how frustrating! But I killed him in next battle with two princes.
And why Bizantium princes when they mature always have at least 4-5 stars in early period?
The command rating of maturing heirs is determined by the command rating of their father, usually minus 1 or 2 stars.
Pin with spears, then shoot them in the back with javelins, crossbow type weapons or napta if they're available. Otherwise a rear charge with powerful cav like the royal bodyguards should take care of them. Having the kats tire out beforehand helps a lot, too.
Pin and flank.
Let some spears take the inevitable charge, and send something with a good attack (even if it has bad defence) to hit them in the sides or in the back if you can.
Militia sergeants might be your best Katank-flanking unit, or maybe Italian infantry can be the attack as well as defence. Pin with one on hold position/formation, and charge in another on engage at will - Italian infantry can do everything.
Mounted sergeants might also work, but you should repeatedly charge and pull back.
Try a ballista. It can't stop the whole unit, but if you can kill the leader with it, then you don't have to fight a jedi, and Katank leaders are always uber-generals with 6 stars, killer instinct virtues, etc, so killing them really decreases the effectiveness of the unit.
(Not to mention routing all the peasants, vanilla spearmen and slav warriors that the Byz fill their armies with for some reason).
Dismounted CKs can walk into the front of charging Katanks and shred them, but I guess we're talking about the early period here.
One more thing: check your inns. You might find something useful which you can't build yourself - mounted XBows (oddly available in Early even though the 2-legged version is not ~:confused:), vikings, javelins, or maybe even camels.
you really like your camels don't you ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithrandir
:balloon2:
Mithrandir took a nasty knock to the head a while back, and now all he can say is "camels"... We're all very worried.
~;)
Lol !
Jinettes in one example, Turcoman HA in another, but any cav archers work well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr White
ichi
You have to kill them using attrition.
Preparation 1: Destroy all enemy troops whilst engaging the kataphrakts with around 3 full units of expendable spearmen.
Method 1: arrow them as much as you can with horse arhcers, then use cavalry to charge into the exhausted katanks, if you feel you don't have enough cavalry to fulfil this task, then retreat and attack next year.
Method 2: Bring 2 units of armoured spearmen, engage the katanks with one group of armored spearmen after your suicide spearmen have finnished occupying the katanks, then charge into the rear of the katanks with your other group of spearmen, I mean get them quite them a distance away, beging charging and sandwich them. If you are churning out spearmen somewhere, box them in and after your formation is broken put all 4 units of spearmen into engage at will mode and let them do their work.
Method 3: Bring out 2 units of high morale heavy cavalry and charge into the rear of the katanks occupied by your spearmen early on in the battle, hope they win a glorious victory and slay the kataphrakts. If either the spear or heavy cavalry break, charge in with your 2nd group of cavalry to lance the scatterred kataphrakts, then retreat and charge again. Begin doing this with both groups of cavalry and get other units to try and prevent the kataphrakts from reforming to help the charging heavy cavalry. This is good against defence lvl 15 jedi kataphraktoi as it may be the only way to kill any of them.
Using missiles is preferable to just pin-flank. The reason being that valour can make those Kataphraktoi really tough even when attacked from behind, but high valour never makes them tougher against missiles.
Quikest and probably easiest way is to pin with an expendable spear unit and then target with napta or javelin.
In early you can't beat javelins for taking down heavy armor. Pin with spears and fire away, watch those fellas melt. As it has alreadty been said Kataproktai themselves aren't that bad it's the fact that the ones in SP are usually high valor royalty that cause the problem.
I think a good polearm unit would work great against them. All that armor just requires a can opener.
Correction- high command royalty ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Champion
Command stars are definitely overpowered in MTW.
Kataphractoi themselves are a pretty mediocre heavy cavalry unit. Compare to chivalric knights who have +2 attack, +4 morale and can move much faster.
I have seen (and owned) zero command princes with 15 valour. It's the Royal Kataphraktoi units that are the problem, not the ones with high command.Quote:
Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder
Recently as the Turks I used the pin and flank with Saracen Infantry and AP Ghazi's ~:) . A tough fight but once the general falls the rest are cake. ~D
Kataphracts are great early unit get phased out by Pronai... though its still probably one of the better units to smash headlong into a unit.
But they tend to come from Contstantinople, which often has a high armour bonus and does it also have +1 valour bonus for kats? Also, you tend to see kats long before you meet chiv. knights (at least if you play early as I do).Quote:
Originally Posted by Germaanse Strijder
However, I agree that the high command Byz generals are formiddable - they can turn slav warriors into fiercesome opponents.
So I would think, polearms get boni both against cavalry and armour, so they should be perfect against Cataphracts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Budwise
True. Combine high valour/high health and you're still in for a world of hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Budwise
Facing a Byz army as Brits, I had upgraded Billmen and Chiv Seargents; the Byz commander and a prince killed over 1200 of my men before being subdued. The commander died to a merc HA as he tried to walk off the field. I actually felt bad about ending him like that:embarassed: alone he accounted for better than 700 of my casualties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
Wow, that is some heavy duty killing ~:eek: . I would have been tempted
to restart the battle and try to take him out early somehow :embarassed: ,
but maybe not. Very impressive ~:cool: .
Yeah, while your 9 stars fall easily to AI foot soldiers, surrounding a AI 9 star seems to just give it more to kill...
Don't tell me you're one of those death before dishonor types. How could that happen? I know the AI occasionally presents its back to my cavalry and I hope you didn't. The goofy AI always likes sending the general in with, and sometimes ahead, of its army leading to isolation and death. That's strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny
There's nothing stupid about sending in a 9 star AI general sicne they seem to get a boost unlike your's.