stats of a unit of pezhetairoi

hi there,

i was playing RTR just now, and i tested something real, really weird.
i did a test of maniples (1 unit of princepes) vs 1 unit of "pezhetairoi" i was the Pez.
so it was 41 vs 43. both units had 11 atk, and 32def ( the pezhetairoi is called "asthetairoi" dunno were that came from..)
i attacked, so a minor disadvantage. but i lost with 5 kills vs 30 (!!!!)

i know the maniple was somehow 'superior' but these were ordinary princepes, minor veterans..against to what RTR claims to be the top-notch pezhetairoi...

what i saw was the pikemen drawing themselves in to a ^ shape. but 5 kills is pathetic!

so my question is: what are the stats of a pezhetairoi? and is the pahlanx still a succesfull formation, still a fighting order of the day?

EDIT:the Question here is basically: is the phalanx still a murdering machine up front?

always blame the stats are we. :no:

Did you, by any chance, back into the Princepes? Otherwise, that doesn't make sense. Or did you break phalanx?
~:confused:

RTR 6.1
i just point n clicked...1 unit of asthetairoi, vs 1 unit of princepes.
phalanx didn't break up. but was pulled in to ^ -shape. at teh sides they went to swords..didn't have a choice.

it's inevitable that teh princepes wield around, so some should always drop pikes...
that fact if teh pikemen shoudl 'always' win this is discussable, since it's demise was primarly because of secundary reasons (mobility,etc..but definatly not fighting capability's up front!)

even if the princepes practically always would have won..5 casualty's!!!!

please, EB modders test how it's done in EB (current, or future version) and post them here...

Not sure how this works. I played RTR 6.0 as Romans and had no problem. I then tried 6.1 as Macedonians then something ridiculous happened. I had around 2000 regular pikemen, 160 royal pikes and 700 or so Hoplites. The enemy had a general’s bodyguard with 3 exp and a total of 85 men.

So I figured I’d take advantage of stupid ai. I lined 2 pike men up in a street and used create archers to bait them in. Problem was by the time they used all their arrows they didn't kill a single enemy so no charge. 'OK' I though. I moved the pike men up side by side and took 1 step forward into the town centre. Sure enough the ai charged head long into the pikes and a massacre started. Problem was I was the one getting killed. After 100 men died and 0 kills I decided the pike formation wasn't helping so I turned it off. After 100 more died and a single kill gained, I decided to bring everyone to join in. I lost 1600 troops to this unit of bodyguards! They were all elite by the time I killed them all. Only won because the general died and the other 30 or so tried to run away and got swamped.

Point of the story is that 3HP and a stat list with everything with 20s and 30s in defence is bad balancing. I've yet to fight real heavy cavalry, I'm scared just thinking of it

Edit: I also don't think Pikemen and Hoplites get their full attack power. See how many strikes those guys land compared to other troop types? By rights they should butcher everything.

Going in to Caligula with the EDU for RTR 6.1, I see:

Princeps - attack 11, defence 32

Pezhatairoi - attack 9, defence 26

So I am not sure where Jerby gets an equality in stats between the two units. Are they modded or something?

On paper, the Princeps is a far superior unit. It attacks the Pezhetairoi at -15 and is attacked at -23. In MTW, having a four point difference roughly doubled kill chances. If we believe the formula is similar here, but each point is worth half of an MTW point, the princeps will kill twice as fast. However, that would not seem to explain the differential losses Jerby reports. Plus, I would have thought that the phalanx formation should help the phalanx a lot.

I wonder if the discrepancy is due to some of the other stats? It can't be lethality - that's 0.3 for the sword and 0.4 for the pike.

Is it something to do with the swing speed? Mr Frost and Qwerty said that has big effects. The swing speed for the hastati is "0" (the fastest) while that for the pezhetairoi is 25. Mr Frost said a unit with swing speed of 25 gets roughly 10/25 of the kills of a unit with a swing speed of 10. So changing the swing speed to 0 may have a pretty big effect.

We really need Mr Frost or Qwerty to comment here! :help:

PS: Anyone know what the swing speeds are for princeps and pikes in vanilla RTW? (I overwrote my original EDU file). If they are the same as RTR, then they may not be to blame.

I'm interested in seeing how well the unit does when out of formation. I assume they have a different swing speed then

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerby

( the pezhetairoi is called "asthetairoi" dunno were that came from..)

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The Ashetarioi are the elite of the Pezhetarioi. You will also find the regular Pezhetarioi in RTR, they are the Macedonian 240 unit size (on huge) Pikemen.

Quote:

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i attacked, so a minor disadvantage. but i lost with 5 kills vs 30 (!!!!)

i know the maniple was somehow 'superior' but these were ordinary princepes, minor veterans..against to what RTR claims to be the top-notch pezhetairoi...

what i saw was the pikemen drawing themselves in to a ^ shape. but 5 kills is pathetic!

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So you tested the units 1v1?

That was the reason why you lost.

Phalanxes (even one on one) have to have support on the flanks. In a battle, large numbers of interlocking phalanxes is impossible to beat from the front....as they should be. Aganist Legion-type troops like the Princepes, it will be hard for them to create many casulties because of the large shields carried by the Romans. However, they still will be able to pin the enemy line so it can be flanked by cavalry or other troops. Which is the realistic way to win aganist the Romans using a combined-arms Hellenistic army.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Going in to Caligula with the EDU for RTR 6.1, I see:

Princeps - attack 11, defence 32

Pezhatairoi - attack 9, defence 26

So I am not sure where Jerby gets an equality in stats between the two units. Are they modded or something?

On paper, the Princeps is a far superior unit. It attacks the Pezhetairoi at -15 and is attacked at -23. In MTW, having a four point difference roughly doubled kill chances. If we believe the formula is similar here, but each point is worth half of an MTW point, the princeps will kill twice as fast. However, that would not seem to explain the differential losses Jerby reports. Plus, I would have thought that the phalanx formation should help the phalanx a lot.

I wonder if the discrepancy is due to some of the other stats? It can't be lethality - that's 0.3 for the sword and 0.4 for the pike.

Is it something to do with the swing speed? Mr Frost and Qwerty said that has big effects. The swing speed for the hastati is "0" (the fastest) while that for the pezhetairoi is 25. Mr Frost said a unit with swing speed of 25 gets roughly 10/25 of the kills of a unit with a swing speed of 10. So changing the swing speed to 0 may have a pretty big effect.

We really need Mr Frost or Qwerty to comment here! :help:

PS: Anyone know what the swing speeds are for princeps and pikes in vanilla RTW? (I overwrote my original EDU file). If they are the same as RTR, then they may not be to blame.

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Last things first ~D : Swing speeds for all units in vanilla are 25 , which is why the individual soldiers seem to spend nearly all of their time posing and only make occasional attacks {It's supposedly 2.5 seconds between animation cycles minimum .

The tricky bit is just comes when units with swing speeds of 0 still spend a lot of time posing {though that is often because they are marching single mindedly towards a target in the back of the opposing scrum and can't push through the crowd ... they stop and fight the moment they get hit by anyone} yet they often make several attacks in succession as well .

The reason I think it gives a straight forward result is the lethality rating . When I first started playing with these , I guestimated and discovered that giving Roman shortswords swing 10 and lethality 0.4 made them kill faster {this is subjective , given that I'm not good at exacting mathematics , rather I go by estimation and experience} than Galic longswords with swing 15 , lethality 0.5 . When I lowered shortswords to 0.35 the kill rates {verses same opponents , typically Sparabara whom get no respect !} the kill rates were virtually identical with broadswords . Similar patterns occured with other weapon matchups excepting where spears were compared with blades , though I confess , I don't remember the specifics of that .

It does seem more complex however .
I think it may end up working as some sort of curve . Still , I go by the rule of thumb that a fractional decrease in minimum swing delay is equal to an equal increase in lethality .

Further more , swords do perform better against spears , though I'm not sure by exactly how much , it seems to be about 10% faster kills {halfarsed methodology : a spear unit and a sword unit with equal attack , defense , swing and lethality rates fight and I monitor the rate of losses of each similtaniously until one unit has a notable numerical advantage {by which it then squews the numbers as individuals on the larger side begin to regularaly flank and double team those of the smaller .
A part of this might come from the swordsmen being able to get inside the spears reach for a moment and get a free hit whilst the spearman must waste a moment to back up a step and start fighting again .

I *think* RTR Phalanx units are supposed to merely hold off and occupy the attention of enemy troops for the cavary to flank and kill . The stats seem to support that to my observation .
{In RTR} I increased the average minimum delay {which lowers the attack rate} for most weapons to 10 {Rhomphia and hand axes got 15 , Falx 20} , lowered min delay for Hoplite type phalanx to 20 {should be about 25% more frequent attacks , couldn't be arsed to sit there hour on end with a stopwatch counting them though ~D } and the increased lethality for pikes to 0.45 {figured they would hit harder due to greater mass and having both arms power them , swing remained at 25} . It seems to make a notable difference overall . I get good performance from phalanx armies like this .


Someone whom excells at careful tests could mod a few units and generate the raw numbers for crunching ...
I can say that I was able to keep the Hypaspists killing machine status with only 1 hp each by upping numbers to 30 {base , 120 on Huge} , attack 16 {few units have that much} defense 36 {Selucid , 10 armour , 16 skill , 10 shield lethality 0.4 , but the bit that lets them own is swing speed 5 {most units have 10} .


Mass should have some play in matters also with Princepes having 1.3 to Pezheads 1 , it would make it easier for the Romans to push past the pikes and force the pikemen to draw swords .
Still , the swing speed difference is the big standout for me . It really slows down the Phalanx killing speed , which would give flanking individuals time to makes kills and frontal ones to push past pikes .
The more I think it through , the more I feel I should lower minimum delay by 5 points each for phalanx spears/pikes in my moded version of RTR6.1 .

thanks for the reply's guys!
got makign sence of it....

simon
i used "asthetairoi" and i "equalized" the stats with +2 armor (custom battle...)

otehr reply's: i know the maniples wield around and tehrefore win...
I was just amazed that the "deadly front" of teh pikes didn't land a hit...even halfway teh battle 50% still had their pikes on..and almost NO kills...
it's just pathetic...

EDIT: changed intro..point of focus changed.

also retested, got 2 units of 60 men, and stretched it to max(2lines), and therefore got a line of 120 men, 4 deep (indeed you mathematician, thats 30 long) against a 42-unit of princepes.
battle started, and after 5 minutes, NO kills. eventually they still wielden roudn and all, but thats a side note. i was just disapointed at the phalanx his killing power up front!
for further info, i just clicked 'attack' at teh enemy...

Jerby, why don't you play around with some of other stats? esp. swing speed? If you equalise everything, then you can see how much the "sword bonus vs spears" is (keep raising the pikes stats until you get even outcomes).

EDIT: If you want to do this, I could open a thread in the Ludus Magna to report your findings.