WOW Scary! Bush wants right to use military if bird flu hits

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Bush wants right to use military if bird flu hits

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush asked Congress on Tuesday to consider giving him powers to use the military to enforce quarantines in case of an avian influenza epidemic.

He said the military, and perhaps the National Guard, might be needed to take such a role if the feared H5N1 bird flu virus changes enough to cause widespread human infection.

"If we had an outbreak somewhere in the United States, do we not then quarantine that part of the country? And how do you, then, enforce a quarantine?" Bush asked at a news conference.

"It's one thing to shut down airplanes. It's another thing to prevent people from coming in to get exposed to the avian flu. And who best to be able to effect a quarantine?" Bush added.

"One option is the use of a military that's able to plan and move. So that's why I put it on the table. I think it's an important debate for Congress to have."

Bird flu has killed more than 60 people in four Asian nations since late 2003 and has been found in birds in Russia and Europe.

Experts fear that the H5N1 bird flu virus, which appears to be highly fatal when it infects people, will develop the ability to pass easily from person to person and would cause a pandemic that would kill millions.

"And I think the president ought to have all ... assets on the table to be able to deal with something this significant," Bush said.

He noted that some governors may object to the federal government commandeering the National Guard, which is under state command in most circumstances.

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FULL ARTICLE

He also thinks the Pentagon should take the lead in domestic disaster response. I agree, it's a little scary.

The primary feature of this that I find disturbing is Bush's apparent line of thought on the state of the military-civilian relationship.

Reason #1,000,567,785 why I want my m(&^#$ f&*@&^% vote back.

I find it scary because I just heard this not long ago:

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Bush considers changes to Posse Comitatus Act

Both right and left wary of giving domestic police power to military
By STEWART M. POWELL
Copyright 2005 Hearst News Service

WASHINGTON - The law is from a bygone era, it has a Latin name and it's never led to a prosecution, much less a conviction.

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Law up for review

Bush signaled that the law was up for review when he said in a nationally televised address from New Orleans on Sept. 15 that the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina showed "a challenge on this scale requires greater federal authority and a broader role for the armed forces."

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan later said revision or repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act was an issue that "needs to be looked at" by Congress and the administration, adding that officials are in the "early planning of discussing it."

Some of the initial impetus for changing the law stemmed from a public outcry over some hurricane victims in New Orleans exploiting the chaos to loot appliance outlets, jewelry shops and clothing stores before police, National Guard troops or active duty soldiers reached flooded areas.

Amid more recent indications that initial reports of lawlessness were exaggerated, concerns over giving federal troops wider authority have moved to center stage.

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FULL ARTICLE

Scary but necessary, i mean you wouldn't want the flu to spread would you?

Quarantine seems like the only option, and the only effective way of quarantine is to close said area, and who provides the most effective way to enforce it other than the military?

I figured we'd have common ground at some point.

seccison is looking better every day:book:

Nixonic facism, all the way. I love to see hardcore Bushites reconsidering their vote. ~D

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Originally Posted by faisal

Quarantine seems like the only option, and the only effective way of quarantine is to close said area, and who provides the most effective way to enforce it other than the military?

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State-activated national guards who:

(a) Have a different set of rules than when federalized and
(b) For whom posse comitatus doesn't apply. Making the debate moot.

So there. This is the very kind of thing that they exist for! State-activated; not federally-activated.

Friggin federal power expansion!!!!:furious3: :furious3:

Interesting comments from the Cato Institute on Executive Power Expansion:

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Executive Orders and National Emergencies:
How Presidents Have Come to "Run the
Country" by Usurping Legislative Power
by William J. Olson and Alan Woll

William J. Olson heads a McLean, Virginia, law firm (www.wjopc.com) that focuses on constitutional, administrative, and civil litigation. Alan Woll is an attorney in Blevins, Arkansas (akewoll@arkansas.net).

Edit: Full Article (Scroll Down the page to view)


Executive Summary

During the recent presidential scandals, concluding with the impeachment of President Clinton, many people were heard to say that the investigations should end so that the president could get back to "the business of running the country." Under a constitution dedicated to individual liberty and limited government—which divides, separates, and limits power—how did we get to a point where so many Americans think of government as embodied in the president and then liken him to a man running a business?

The answer rests in part with the growth of presidential rule through executive orders and national emergencies. Unfortunately, the Constitution defines presidential powers very generally; and nowhere does it define, much less limit, the power of a president to rule by executive order—except by reference to that general language and the larger structure and function of the Constitution. The issue is especially acute when presidents use executive orders to legislate, for then they usurp the powers of Congress or the states, raising fundamental concerns about the separation and division of powers.

The problem of presidential usurpation of legislative power has been with us from the beginning, but it has grown exponentially with the expansion of government in the 20th century. In enacting program after program, Congress has delegated more and more power to the executive branch. Thus, Congress has not only failed to check but has actually abetted the expansion of presidential power. And the courts have been all but absent in restraining presidential lawmaking.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Reason #1,000,567,785 why I want my m(&^#$ f&*@&^% vote back.

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Kerry wouldn't ask for it though, he'd take it. ****ing Maoist that he is.

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Originally Posted by meatwad

I love to see hardcore Bushites reconsidering their vote. ~D

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And now I'm a hard core Bushite. Nice to know.

I say we get the entire US to do a write in for Bismarck next election. We'd have a corpse!

I'm not sure what he's got in mind for bird flu, but we do have big problems at the moment with the restrictions on Federal response to disasters. Unfortunately, trust in the Federal govt. is at a low.

You've got to be a bit off to think state forces are somehow less capable of abusing power than Federal ones. (Ditto for local.) History proves the opposite to be the case. One method of preventing state abuse of power in the past has been to Federalize their Guard... Secession would be a good example of state abuse of its citizens driven to the extremis. Of course, secesssion died of a theory.

Honestly, I've about given up on my countrymen getting a clue on how to make government actually work for them. When I'm hearing how much we CAN'T do on a regular basis (ironically from the small gov't types who I consider responsible for many of the recent fiascos), it makes me hang my head in shame. I don't want to be any part of this "can't do" society.

I would be happy to let my countrymen go back to about 1860, if I didn't have to be dragged along with them. I think it would do them some good to get a feel for what it would really mean.

If he wanted to use the military , then the military would have to be vaccinated . After the miltary , some essential health workers (and of course the politicians and their friends) have recieved the vaccine , will there be any left for people who actually get the disease ?
What is scary is not the federal/state issue , it is the prospect of this flu mutating , a very likely scenario and one that is very scary .
If it does mutate and spread , will any of you be going out on the streets anyway to be worried if it is federal or state forces stopping you from traveling ?

The avian flu is not to play with. Actually I think that the military would be able to do a rather substansial contribution in fighting it......

People can quarantine themselves, we don't need the damn feds doing it for us. (*%&&

Point 2:
Kerry is a Maoist? Kaiser, you have a history of throwing out names for groups without any basis. Maoist is diffrent from Marxist is diffrent from Trotskyist is diffrent from Socialist is diffrent from Liberal

I can see how this will end up

1. Flu hits kills 5 million
2. Bush sends troops into urban areas asks for more power
3. Takes weapons away due to looting acroos America
4. Goverment takes away more rights
5. And when we have no rights left Bush is defacto zionst oil-tycoon facsit dictator with no one to stop him

*Strike stars to cry thinking about his future*:embarassed:

I thought freaking out of conspiracy theories was my job...

If Bush wanted to sieze power and act in an extra-constitutional manner, he certainly doesn't need to create some crazy thing like Avian flu to serve as a ruse. He's got plenty of things the American public are already more afraid of that he could use as his boogeyman.

I am kinda scared over this too, but not because of the political ramifications. Have any of you stopped to ask "How bad is this avian flu if Bush thinks he's going to need the army to keep order when it hits?" What haven't the Chinese told us? ~:eek:

Now this is funny - can't wait for the idealogue spouters who don't think to get a hold of this and say President Bush and his adminstration is turning the United States into a Facist State.

By the way its really a new face on old scenerio

http://www.tricare.osd.mil/eenews/do...s/Smallpox.doc

http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/aug03/homeland.asp

Pay attention to what is going on - definetly.

Go screaming into the hills because you think the government is about to take a bigger piece - not yet.

Oh by the way - I guess some would be upset with President Bush Sr. when he sent federal troops into Los Angeles to quel the riots. ~:eek:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

If he wanted to use the military , then the military would have to be vaccinated . After the miltary , some essential health workers (and of course the politicians and their friends) have recieved the vaccine , will there be any left for people who actually get the disease ?

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Since we are dealing with a virus there is a vaccine for those who are not yet infected, but once you are infected you have to deal with it yourself. Had it been a bacteria then it would have been different.
And since the vaccination in this case (I think) is a weakened version of virus it would only weaken those who had it but wasn't affected by it yet.

It would be cold, cynical and not very nice, but what to do that would be better?
History has shown that people are about the worst there are when it comes to epidemicts, for we understand the peril, so we flee. Thus we bring it with us. Most people take the road over hiding in the basement during an epidemic. So much for selfquarantine.
Obviously someone/something has to stand guard to keep it contained.

"How bad is this avian flu if Bush thinks he's going to need the army to keep order when it hits?" What haven't the Chinese told us?
Don , they are saying , don't make comparisons with the Flu pandemic of 1919 , think more along the lines of small pox and native Americans .~:eek:
IF it mutates that is .

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Originally Posted by meatwad

Nixonic facism, all the way. I love to see hardcore Bushites reconsidering their vote. ~D

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Nixon a fascist?!???:dizzy2:

He was a "country club" Republican old-schooler. Brilliant hard-ball politics internationally, but he allowed public opinion to divert an all-out effort in Vietnam and used wage & price controls while expanding the social welfare system nearly as quickly as LBJ. He was anti-communist, but no fascist.

Seamus

By the way, most conservatives who're reconsidering their votes are doing so because they feel Bush isn't taking a staunch enough conservative line.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Since we are dealing with a virus there is a vaccine for those who are not yet infected, but once you are infected you have to deal with it yourself. Had it been a bacteria then it would have been different.
And since the vaccination in this case (I think) is a weakened version of virus it would only weaken those who had it but wasn't affected by it yet.

It would be cold, cynical and not very nice, but what to do that would be better?
History has shown that people are about the worst there are when it comes to epidemicts, for we understand the peril, so we flee. Thus we bring it with us. Most people take the road over hiding in the basement during an epidemic. So much for selfquarantine.
Obviously someone/something has to stand guard to keep it contained.

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Have you ever read McNeil on the influence of disease on history? Compelling stuff.

Seamus

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Have you ever read McNeil on the influence of disease on history? Compelling stuff.

Seamus

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Read part of it - and yes its an interesting book - lost my copy in a move and have yet to find it - maybe its time to go buy it again and finish reading it.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

By the way, most conservatives who're reconsidering their votes are doing so because they feel Bush isn't taking a staunch enough conservative line.

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exactly

This is a good idea. After Katrina its obvious in many parts of the country state and local officials are lacking in disaster response compared to the federal government. Of course I am speaking relatively.

Im all for states rights, but this bird flu could be some bad s***, and I would rather have the feds trying to run a quarentine than Kathlene Blanco.

The U.S., I believe (and perhaps other nations as well) has a need for another uniformed service. The one's we have cover air, land, sea, and katn assault work. We probably need a 5th that is short on artillery but long on MPs, trainers, engineers, doctors, plumbers, carpenters, etc. The other services are for killing people and breaking things in extremis, the new service would handle all the recovery/reconstruction tasks we must do, but for which the armed forces are not perfectly suited.

Seamus

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The U.S., I believe (and perhaps other nations as well) has a need for another uniformed service. The one's we have cover air, land, sea, and katn assault work. We probably need a 5th that is short on artillery but long on MPs, trainers, engineers, doctors, plumbers, carpenters, etc. The other services are for killing people and breaking things in extremis, the new service would handle all the recovery/reconstruction tasks we must do, but for which the armed forces are not perfectly suited.

Seamus

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that sounds great and too expensive.