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Prisoners to have the right to vote
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4315348.stm
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Banning prisoners from voting breaches their human rights, a court has ruled.
The judgment by the European Court of Human Rights looks likely to force a change in British law on parliamentary and local elections.
This seems to me to be a difficult issue requiring careful consideration of the arguments on either side.
But stuff that, this is the backroom.
I'd have to see the judgement but at first sight this looks mad. The whole point of people being in prison is that they are removed from wider civic society for a time as a result of the crimes they have committed. If they are to have the right to vote they must surely be allowed conjugal visits (under the right to marry and found a family), presumably they should be allowed to take any personal property in that they like (right to enjoyment of possessions), and so on. In fact lets just not bother locking them up at all.
I also see, if the BBC report is accurate, that the court has taken the classic admin lawyer's cowards way out, in making the ruling on the basis that a blanket ban is disproportionate. So, SOME ban MIGHT be lawful, and now huge amounts of public money must be spent on civil servants to make a decision in each and every case, not to mention appeals and challenges to those decisions. Just so scrotes who can't keep their fingers off other people or their property can vote for the "be nice to criminals" party (eg the liberal democrats)
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
over here prisioners can vote....i don´t see a problem with it.....
the point of prison is preventing the prisioners from causing harm to the society....i don´t see how they can do this with a vote.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
Perhaps the courts will next rule that a Marine platoon should be polled for their decision as to whether or not they should attack an enemy position. Plebesites for all decisions -- what could be more efficient?
Seamus
P.S. I don't mind irony, it just takes too long to get my sleeves smooth.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Perhaps the courts will next rule that a Marine platoon should be polled for their decision as to whether or not they should attack an enemy position. Plebesites for all decisions -- what could be more efficient?
Seamus
P.S. I don't mind irony, it just takes too long to get my sleeves smooth.
i fail to see the paralelism between the situations.....it´s not like the prisioners are voting if they should stay in prision or not......and even if they were...the rest of the population would also vote.....which means they´d lose.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by Ronin
i fail to see the paralelism between the situations.....it´s not like the prisioners are voting if they should stay in prision or not......and even if they were...the rest of the population would also vote.....which means they´d lose.
Well, they could vote for parties promising shorter prison terms. That's sort of the same thing.
This seems ridiculous. I'm all for ex-cons being allowed to vote, but you shouldn't be able to do it whilst you're in prison. It's part of your punishment.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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over here prisioners can vote....i don´t see a problem with it.....
Voting is exercising an important civic responsibility, maybe the most important one there is. Why should people who have completely failed to observe the most basic rules of civic society, and who are in the middle of being punished for it, be allowed to have/trusted with the vote?
As usual in this case IMHO the trouble is we focus on the "right" to vote withiut thinking about the "duty" to use your vote in the interests of all your fellow citizens. Which a con in prison seems unlikely to be able to do. As I said (rather cleverly I thought) in a debate on whether 16 year olds should have the vote, the issue isn't whether they should have a say over their own lives, the issue is whether they should have a say over other people's.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by Ronin
over here prisioners can vote....i don´t see a problem with it.....
the point of prison is preventing the prisioners from causing harm to the society....i don´t see how they can do this with a vote.
The government is a major determinant of the society, surely allowing prisoners to influence the government is allowing them to influence society, and their 'influence' on society is precisely what they're being punished for.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
How is that regulated in the UK?
Does it depend on the crime or the length of the sentence whether a prisoner is allowed to vote or not?
Or is it that you lost your right to vote automatically if you happen to serve a prison sentence at the time of the election (even if it is something like a 30 day sentence)?
EDIT: I have to admit that I do not even know if prisoners are allowed to vote hre in Germany :embarassed:
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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The government is a major determinant of the society, surely allowing prisoners to influence the government is allowing them to influence society, and their 'influence' on society is precisely what they're being punished for.
This is the problem with the UN. The criminals get to vote.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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How is that regulated in the UK?
Does it depend on the crime or the length of the sentence whether a prisoner is allowed to vote or not?
Or is it that you lost your right to vote automatically if you happen to serve a prison sentence at the time of the election (even if it is something like a 30 day sentence)?
The latter. If you happen to be a guest of her majesty on polling day you don't vote.
I'm not sure what happens if you are out on licence, I guess you still can't vote but I'm not sure.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
This is the problem with the UN. The criminals get to vote.
Like the US? ~D (no, seriously, I'm not anti-American... I just like to give conservatives a jab every now and then.)
I see no reason prisoners should have a right to vote. If you think about it, locking a man up in a small room is also a violation of his civil rights- but there is a reason that man has lost his civil rights. Granted, maybe he should not be there- but that is another issue entirely. Prison is an area where civil rights should be suspended, up to the point where direct physical or psychological harm can be visited upon the person.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by thrashaholic
The government is a major determinant of the society, surely allowing prisoners to influence the government is allowing them to influence society, and their 'influence' on society is precisely what they're being punished for.
the prisioners are not enough of a % of the population to have any effective effect on the election results......could they make bad choises and hurt the country...yes they can......so can morons....but we don´t conduct IQ tests on people before we let them vote do we?...
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
Perhaps it should be conditional on good behaviour? Giving people the chance at civic involvement might actually connect them to society again as opposed just becoming increasingly imbittered and angry at "the system", I wouldnt imagine the majority of prisoners ever voted before they went into the slammer. If you arent one of the people who chose those in power its a lot easier to point the finger at others, if you are involved in the decision, then you are at least a functioning part of the system. I dont think it should be automatic for all prisoners, but those that show they are reforming should be given the oppertunity.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by _Martyr_
Perhaps it should be conditional on good behaviour? Giving people the chance at civic involvement might actually connect them to society again as opposed just becoming increasingly imbittered and angry at "the system", I wouldnt imagine the majority of prisoners ever voted before they went into the slammer. If you arent one of the people who chose those in power its a lot easier to point the finger at others, if you are involved in the decision, then you are at least a functioning part of the system. I dont think it should be automatic for all prisoners, but those that show they are reforming should be given the oppertunity.
exactly...over here.....in a prison with let´s say 500 prisioners when election day comes around maybe 20-30 prisioners will vote....it´s not like these guys are electing presidents to pull for their views or anything.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
So once again the European Union courts will force a soveriegn nation to bend to its will.
If you break the law which is there to protect society from harm, and are convicted of that crime - your rights granted to you by society should suffer the consequences of your failure to abide by society's rules. Losing the right to vote - is in line with that philosophy.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by Ronin
...but we don´t conduct IQ tests on people before we let them vote do we?...
I'd be ok with it.:book:
Prisoners should not be allowed to vote, neither should morons, two catagories that I'm sure overlap.~;)
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
Except in the UK, with the "first past the post" way of voting, a few votes can change the person elected as MP.
If you take this ruling ot the endth degree, is not illegal to deprive someone of their "basic human right" to freedom?
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
If you break the law are convicted of a crime then yes you lose certain rights. No one would deny that. The thing we are arguing is that for those who want to win the right to vote back, they should be able to through good behaviour and a genuine positive response and remorse.
Come on, how many prisoners are we actually talking about here? What percentage are actually going to avail of this oppertunity? If people are showing positive signs that they are reforming and responding to their punishment, we should encourage it with granting them back some of their rights. Disenfranchised people with no civic awareness or connection are after all more likely to re-offend, no?
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by Ronin
the prisioners are not enough of a % of the population to have any effective effect on the election results......could they make bad choises and hurt the country...yes they can......so can morons....but we don´t conduct IQ tests on people before we let them vote do we?...
Nor do we require a demonstration of parenting skills/basic responsibility prior to breeding. Please don't get us started on that line, my computer does not have that much processing ability.
Seamus
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by _Martyr_
Come on, how many prisoners are we actually talking about here? What percentage are actually going to avail of this oppertunity?
So because they are relatively small in numbers it doesn’t matter? What if we only had a small number of slaves? It is not the number but the point.:bow:
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
I'm sure there is something illegal about foreign courts meddling with laws and the Queen's writ and such like in the great few but existing Uneditable laws of the Constitution...
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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So once again the European Union courts will force a soveriegn nation to bend to its will
In a nutshell.
This is the European Court of Human Rights, which, strictly, we can ignore if we like, unlike the European Court of Justice which can indeed override any UK law it feels like, or, rather, it thinks it can. (ECHR rules on the European Convention on Human Rights, ECJ on the EU treaties).
But basically, yeah, another decision made somewhere where we have no say.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
God knows the liberals here in the States needs some votes, I bet there is nothing more the democrats want is for criminlas to vote.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
It's not going to make any difference. They're still citizens anyway.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by yesdachi
I'd be ok with it.:book:
so would I......but the fact stands that our societies don´t do that sort of thing.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by King Henry V
If you take this ruling ot the endth degree, is not illegal to deprive someone of their "basic human right" to freedom?
You beat me to that one... Isn't being forcibly placed in prison also a 'breach of human rights'? I thought that was the whole idea with prison, but what do I know? :shrug:
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by Xiahou
Isn't being forcibly placed in prison also a 'breach of human rights'?
This incursion of the prisoner's human rights is allowed because it is to protect the human rights (of safety etc.) of others, whose rights the prisoner has aready tried to violate. Allowing a prisoner to vote hardly damages others.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
I'm not sure if prisoners in Aus can vote... I know that you can get fined if you dont vote, so I'm not sure if they are in a catch 22 or treated like overseas citizens.
Personally I think they should not get a vote while doing time, and for violent crimes unless pardoned they never should get the right to vote again (murder, rape or line dancing).
I think we should focus on a society that restores the dignity and rights of the victims before we start looking after additional rights for criminals.
Also as a priority we should be removing drugs from prisons, and teaching the prisoners social skills before we make them have powers to change the wider society.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
Screw 'em.
Prisoners should definitely not be allowed to vote.
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Re: Prisoners to have the right to vote
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Originally Posted by yesdachi
So because they are relatively small in numbers it doesn’t matter? What if we only had a small number of slaves? It is not the number but the point.:bow:
Thats a bit of a cheap shot it I may say so, anyone can all pull on empty rhetoric...
My point was that the overall effect will not be a huge surge for liberal parties who may be in favour of more leniant terms. as the numbers of prisoners who would take up this oppertunity would be tiny. So any concerns that the prisoners could "vote themselves out of prison" are put aside.
