"Good" and "Evil"

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10-09-2005, 03:25
Quietus

"Good" and "Evil"

Continued from another thread....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulforged

It can be reflected in law, but are the laws the measure of good and bad, not. There's absolutelly no way to make objective rules for morality.

Can you point to any segment of society that best characterize "good" and "evil" at that moment in time socially, that best mirror its inhabitants? It's the law.

Quote:

Ok, but why do you call it illusion? In any case there's exceptions, a man can force his system to not eat, he'll die but he can do it.

You can do it, but that's part of the system, regardless. You simply took out your dna out of the gene pool. Which makes sense because that meant the individual wasn't fit in the system (which say, you have to eat these "food"). Survival of the fittest, remember?

Quote:

That's a very positive and wrong view of the human. The human has a will, wich don't necesarilly comes from survival.

If you look at your body, it's designed for survival here on earth, that's all.

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I ate paper some time, by my own decesion. DNA doesn't determine choices, just tendences.

How many times have you eaten paper before? Is it a habit? The thing is, eating paper is a waste since your body gets no energy from it. That's why it doesn't taste good.

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So you see the human as just another animal.

Humans are the most evolved and adapted, currently sitting at the top of the food chain.

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The difference is exactly that freedom that you seem to ignore. If I've a piece of bread and in the other hand a piece of chocolat and I decide to eat chocolate today and bread tomorrow there's a choice. If I decide to eat paper, there's a choice.

Bread and Chocolate are fine according to your DNA. But I'll never see you say I've eaten 'my watch and computer' today.

Quote:

That's why I think that you're trying to discuss free will, wich is discussable, but material freedom (ie the perceptible possibility of election) is not discussable it's out there and it's evident. The human is way beyond the simple instinct, the human works with the mind.

Society is just part of evolution that's all. Just look at those people on New Orleans, it's one for himself, even the cops were only concerned for themselves. Society is generally safe that's why those instinctive nature doesn't flare up.

When you die, you never pass your brain, you only pass your genes to your progeny, because the brain is only peripheral.
10-09-2005, 03:35
Kaiser of Arabia

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

"There is an old illusion-it is called good and evil."

or,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome.

or,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

What is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil.
10-09-2005, 03:42
Papewaio

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Evil: That which denies the humanity in others.
10-09-2005, 04:03
bmolsson

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Good = us
Evil = them

Simple as that..... ~;)
10-09-2005, 04:32
Alexanderofmacedon

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

I want to come to Indonesia...
10-09-2005, 04:46
Soulforged

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quietus

Can you point to any segment of society that best characterize "good" and "evil" at that moment in time socially, that best mirror its inhabitants? It's the law.

Ok I'll give you that, though you missed my point over and over. My point is that law is not the representation of good and bad is only a pragmatic rule that tries to achieve that, the good and bad, or a simple neutral disposition (you'll see lots of them in my code for example). But continue with your view it's not totally alien if you want it. I thought you'll iniciate some discussion over more important topics like the free will, that hardly will be decided here, but at least is not a trivial subject of semantics.

Quote:

You can do it, but that's part of the system, regardless. You simply took out your dna out of the gene pool. Which makes sense because that meant the individual wasn't fit in the system (which say, you have to eat these "food"). Survival of the fittest, remember?

Wait, what do you mean with taking my dna out of the gene pool:1- the genes are in the DNA, so it will be the other way around. 2- You cannot take the gene of the pool, if you could then your freedom will be there...So you just prooved my point (wich in any case has the proof of many more phylosophers with much more voice than I)

Quote:

If you look at your body, it's designed for survival here on earth, that's all.

Ok, but how does that makes all other non-survival oriented things and illusion?

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How many times have you eaten paper before? Is it a habit? The thing is, eating paper is a waste since your body gets no energy from it. That's why it doesn't taste good.

I eat paper many times as a satanic ritual for the archienemy of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Italian Fork :devil: ~;) .
That's not my point you say it's an illusion because all tends to survival I point out that you're wrong because there are many conducts with certain complexity were the human forgets all about his survival or that of the species. Also I clearly stated that the DNA generates tendences, not absolutes, you still make decissions. If I can decide one or three times, it doesn't matter, it's not the essence of the discussion.

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Humans are the most evolved and adapted, currently sitting at the top of the food chain.

We're far from animals our "soul" or "mind" makes us of another category. Reducing all process of society and the human in society to simple positivism has been already prooved wrong, that's why social sciences exists.

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Bread and Chocolate are fine according to your DNA. But I'll never see you say I've eaten 'my watch and computer' today.

No but I can decide to eat chocolate or bread...

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Society is just part of evolution that's all. Just look at those people on New Orleans, it's one for himself, even the cops were only concerned for themselves. Society is generally safe that's why those instinctive nature doesn't flare up.

You're talking about Social Darwinism? Ok this is again pure positivism applied to the complex relations and events of society. Not very good that's because all social scientists use hermeneutics to investigate all this.
10-09-2005, 05:19
Strike For The South

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

America=Right

Everyone else=wrong

Geez for how intellegint you guys are I figured this would be easy but I guess the most simple thing can slip intelligent men
10-09-2005, 05:24
Kaiser of Arabia

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by strike for the south

America=Right

Everyone else=wrong

Geez for how intellegint you guys are I figured this would be easy but I guess the most simple thing can slip intelligent men

Me=Right, but evil
The Left=Evil
The Right=Good
10-09-2005, 05:36
AntiochusIII

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

Me=Right, but evil
The Left=Evil
The Right=Good

*Smiles his best evil smile. Grinning, he decided to post his MSN messenger "name" here: "...and The Lord sayest: "Let there be homework." And there was homework. And men praised Him. So I cried against Him The Lord. And He castest me down Heaven hence. And He sayest: "Thou shall do thy homework." And I didst my homework. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth."* :devil: Yes, I am the man whom Dante saw before he climbed out of Inferno.

Also, the true formula is this: Bush=wrong. Everybody else=right. ~;)
10-09-2005, 05:57
Kaiser of Arabia

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

I thought the formula for right and wrong was

4xy^3/6zrt^3-48.598*x^2+65
10-09-2005, 07:54
Ice

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

I thought the formula for right and wrong was

4xy^3/6zrt^3-48.598*x^2+65

No, that's just another useless, algebra formula, that they make you learn, so they can then torture you. You will have forgot it 2 weeks later.
10-09-2005, 07:56
Ice

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

*Smiles his best evil smile. Grinning, he decided to post his MSN messenger "name" here: "...and The Lord sayest: "Let there be homework." And there was homework. And men praised Him. So I cried against Him The Lord. And He castest me down Heaven hence. And He sayest: "Thou shall do thy homework." And I didst my homework. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth."* :devil: Yes, I am the man whom Dante saw before he climbed out of Inferno.

Also, the true formula is this: Bush=wrong. Everybody else=right. ~;)

That formula is incorrect. If Bush is wrong, then Chaney, and his Condi must be wrong too. :P

P.S.
I don't hate Bush. :)
10-09-2005, 12:11
Sjakihata

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Evil is simply the absence of good.

Good is many things, it's relative. What's good for me isnt necessary good for you.
10-09-2005, 12:11
The Stranger

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

i do hate bush ~D
10-09-2005, 22:15
BDC

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

My view = good
Other views = evil

Nice and simple.
10-10-2005, 03:23
Quietus

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulforged

Ok I'll give you that, though you missed my point over and over. My point is that law is not the representation of good and bad is only a pragmatic rule that tries to achieve that, the good and bad, or a simple neutral disposition (you'll see lots of them in my code for example). But continue with your view it's not totally alien if you want it. I thought you'll iniciate some discussion over more important topics like the free will, that hardly will be decided here, but at least is not a trivial subject of semantics.

I'm not defining Law. Society's function is to do what individuals can't do on their own in Evolution. So justice fits right in as well.

Quote:

Wait, what do you mean with taking my dna out of the gene pool:1- the genes are in the DNA, so it will be the other way around. 2- You cannot take the gene of the pool, if you could then your freedom will be there...So you just prooved my point (wich in any case has the proof of many more phylosophers with much more voice than I)

It means that if you only eat paper, you'll die and your dna won't be passed to your children. Reproduction is just mixing of your dna and another dna from your mate. You're selected out because you're not doing your real function. It's natural selection.

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Ok, but how does that makes all other non-survival oriented things and illusion?

You don't know what's happening inside your body, you're only aware of your consciousness. Your consciousness is not central to you. You only think because that's part of the illusion.

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I eat paper many times as a satanic ritual for the archienemy of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Italian Fork :devil: ~;).

But in the end, you'll still eat Real "food" ~;), drink water, breathe, go to sleep, and go the bathroom.

Quote:

That's not my point you say it's an illusion because all tends to survival I point out that you're wrong because there are many conducts with certain complexity were the human forgets all about his survival or that of the species. Also I clearly stated that the DNA generates tendences, not absolutes, you still make decissions. If I can decide one or three times, it doesn't matter, it's not the essence of the discussion. We're far from animals our "soul" or "mind" makes us of another category. Reducing all process of society and the human in society to simple positivism has been already prooved wrong, that's why social sciences exists.

Everything is simply about Survival and Reproduction. That's the ultimate system in life.

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No but I can decide to eat chocolate or bread...

If is tell you, you're free to write whatever you want, just use these 5 letters: ABCDE, that's freedom? The illusion is that you "think" picking from ABCDE is actually a choice.

Quote:

You're talking about Social Darwinism? Ok this is again pure positivism applied to the complex relations and events of society. Not very good that's because all social scientists use hermeneutics to investigate all this.

(edit: typos) What your cells can't do is done by your tissues (primarily)
What your tissues can't do is done by your organs (primarily)
What your organs can't do is done by your organ systems (primarily)
What your organ systems can't do is done by you (primarily)
What you can't do is done by society (primarily).

Do you see the patterns in the level of organization? That's evolution.
10-10-2005, 03:36
Don Corleone

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quietus, I'm not certain I understand the nature of your question. Rather than chiming in with what may or may not be my offering towards the question I think you're asking, let me ask you to rephrase your request.

Are you looking for examples of absolute good and evil that stand the test of relativism? Or are you looking for examples from different timeframes of that which has been judged by the society contemporary of the time to be good or evil? I believe I can provide examples of both.
10-10-2005, 03:50
Quietus

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Quietus, I'm not certain I understand the nature of your question. Rather than chiming in with what may or may not be my offering towards the question I think you're asking, let me ask you to rephrase your request.

Are you looking for examples of absolute good and evil that stand the test of relativism? Or are you looking for examples from different timeframes of that which has been judged by the society contemporary of the time to be good or evil? I believe I can provide examples of both.

Don,
The origin of the discussion came from the thread "The nature of time..." by Byzantine Prince. Soulforged and I kinda picked it up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

Most men are not free, not in the way that they should anyways. That's why they believe in good and evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quietus

All men were never free. Men can be defective but not free. Answer these questions:

1) Which came first, your hunger or your stomach?
2) Which came first, your stomach or your DNA?
3) Which came first, your DNA or your parents' DNA?

Freedom is only an illusion. Your feelings are only there to keep you alive and reproduce (and pass your DNA to your children). You never pass your brain. That's the system and it is inescapable. If you kill yourself, it means that you are simply defective and your dna is eliminated from the pool. If you never reproduce, it means you are not good enough in this system as well.

Like it or not, you are part of that system, which is Evolution.

Lastly, laws are the social measure of "good" and "evil". People follow it for their own protection (survival) as well as others. It is favored, because Society is there do what individuals can't do on their own and it is part of Evolution itself.

eg. If you can beat a gang of 20 thieves on your own, there would be no need for cops.

~:)
10-10-2005, 03:54
Don Corleone

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quietus

Don,
The origin of the discussion came from the thread "The nature of time..." by Byzantine Prince. Soulforged and I kinda picked it up.

So sorry, thought this was an open thread. Very well, you three commence doing all the thinking for the rest of us.
10-10-2005, 04:21
Soulforged

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quietus

It means that if you only eat paper, you'll die and your dna won't be passed to your children. Reproduction is just mixing of your dna and another dna from your mate. You're selected out because you're not doing your real function. It's natural selection.

Ok but natural selection doesn't explains the real caracteristics of an human being, the human being also has a mind wich surpases the simple will of the flesh and the animal instinct.

Quote:

You don't know what's happening inside your body, you're only aware of your consciousness. Your consciousness is not central to you. You only think because that's part of the illusion.

That's where I differ. The conciousness is for me the central part of every human being, it's essence.

Quote:

But in the end, you'll still eat Real "food" ~;), drink water, breathe, go to sleep, and go the bathroom.

Ok but I can take the decision wheter to do it or not.

Quote:

Everything is simply about Survival and Reproduction. That's the ultimate system in life.

Again sadomasiquism doesn't has to do with survival. Buying a Rolex either, playing with the computer or driving a Ferrari are not about survival. The human life is much more complex than the simple animal.

Quote:

If is tell you, you're free to write whatever you want, just use these 5 letters: ABCDE, that's freedom? The illusion is that you "think" picking from ABCDE is actually a choice.

I can choose between A,B,C,D or E.

Quote:

What your cells can't do is done by your tissues (primarily)
What your cells can't do is done by your organs (primarily)
What your cells can't do is done by your organ systems (primarily)
What your organ systems can't do is done by you (primarily)
What you can't do is done by society (primarily).

That's your way to see it. For me the human created society for protection, but also for finding pleasure and abundance, relate with others, organize, write songs. Most of the things we do in society are more oriented to the simple pleasure and enjoying of the abundance that to mere survival.
10-10-2005, 04:46
Byzantine Prince

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

You can make choices, the difficulty comes from confounding factors that influence your, most likely, procratinating attitude. This is the main problem in doing homework. Everyone knows it needs to be done, but it's not always done.

Please respond. I know I'm on everyone's ignore list and everything but try to take what I say into account.
10-10-2005, 04:53
Alexanderofmacedon

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Bush = wrong (not evil)
Any other person (even some republicans) = right.

Bush, is just plain stupid
10-10-2005, 04:55
ichi

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Eerything that I do is normal, everything I don't do is perverted

ichi~:cheers:
10-10-2005, 05:17
Togakure

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Scientific Statement of Being

There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter. All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all. Spirit is immortal Truth; matter is mortal error. Spirit is the real and eternal; matter is the unreal and temporal. Spirit is God, and man is His image and likeness. Therefore man is not material; he is spiritual.

Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, p.468:9 - Mary Baker Eddy

***

Hence, all that is real is Good. Evil is unreal; it doesn't exist. ~:)

[the statement in this post is not necessarily the belief of the poster; it is offered for the sake of discussion, as it is a rather unusual point of view, and fascinating if you take some time to think about it ... ]
10-10-2005, 05:50
AntiochusIII

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

You can make choices, the difficulty comes from confounding factors that influence your, most likely, procratinating attitude. This is the main problem in doing homework. Everyone knows it needs to be done, but it's not always done.

However, it is still debatable whether or not it's our free will that make this choice, or various influences that range from the physical condition/shape of one's body, the environment in which one grows up, and such.

If the former, that I suggest that there is good and evil. For our free will dictates our acts. If the latter, however, good and evil will, under close inspection behind a massive wall of prejudice, become as concepts of inequality.

Does one do his homework because of his free will, or influences convince him (which mean, of course, his brain waves "thoughts" if we are to believe this side of the issue) to do his homework?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter. All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all. Spirit is immortal Truth; matter is mortal error. Spirit is the real and eternal; matter is the unreal and temporal. Spirit is God, and man is His image and likeness. Therefore man is not material; he is spiritual.

The proof the existence of one's spirit, however, does not really exist. And it is up to debate whether or not our spirit truly exists. In fact, if we are to take into context the myth of God (which, I presume, is the origin of this argument) we can see a fundamental conflict with the story of "evil" such as Lucifer's rebellion and banishment. Is he not evil? He is certainly not just devoid of good, for if he is just devoid of good, he will not do evil, intentionally, at least.

Viewing from an unbeliever's (and supporter of evolution theory) point of view, however, I observe that "evil acts" include those that are motivated by our instincts of survival as well.

On the other hand, we can view "good" and "evil" as relative, rather than universal, and that "good" is the "norm" & the "betterment" of society, while evil is its polar opposite.
10-10-2005, 06:42
Soulforged

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

You can make choices, the difficulty comes from confounding factors that influence your, most likely, procratinating attitude. This is the main problem in doing homework. Everyone knows it needs to be done, but it's not always done.

Ha! I appear to be in that list too.~:cheers:

Quote:

There is no life, truth, intelligence, nor substance in matter. All is infinite Mind and its infinite manifestation, for God is All-in-all. Spirit is immortal Truth; matter is mortal error. Spirit is the real and eternal; matter is the unreal and temporal. Spirit is God, and man is His image and likeness. Therefore man is not material; he is spiritual.

All of this is incorrect. The man purely material, the same spirit surges from this materiality, it can even supase the mere materiallity and elevate the man, but the man is not spiritual. Saying that the matter is not real is a way to confuse terms that's inadmisable, real is what can be percived and analized or observated in it's perceptible form to get conclusions about it and describe it. The matter is all, the spirit wich comes second only interprets the matter, that's what the human free spirit does, even with his own matter. This frase shines with absurdity, classic of the never ending and uncorrectible idealists.

Quote:

Hence, all that is real is Good. Evil is unreal; it doesn't exist.

You got to that conclussion from that paragraph? How did you do that?~:confused:
No Good or Evil exists, it's just an illusion, another idea. Anyway they don't exist separated by themselves, they do exist as subjective elements of the human mind. But the conclussions of this Mr. are really curious.
10-10-2005, 07:25
Togakure

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Real is that which can be analized??!! Ahem ... oh dear ... . ~:eek:

Seriously: what I presented is a key set of ideas upon which the Christian Science faith is based (not to be confused with Scientology). I didn't tie my personal conclusion to the Scientific Statement of Being because I wanted to see if anyone would make the connection. Considering what you wrote, it would seem that your beliefs are diametrically opposed to what the Christian Scientists choose to believe. And that's ok--no one knows; we choose to believe. I choose to believe that I don't "know" much of anything; it leaves me receptive to new ideas.

Imagine a mirror, where "Evil" is represented by grime that tarnishes a reflected image. The image in the mirror represents the material, the temporal, the unreal. That which creates the image in the mirror is Spiritual, immortal, and real--of God, and therefore, "Good." Does the grime, which impedes/distorts the image, affect the source of the image? No. We tend to view the material world as that which is real; some choose to believe that it is merely a reflection of what is truly real. I find this to be an interesting point of view.
10-10-2005, 08:40
Quietus

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

So sorry, thought this was an open thread. Very well, you three commence doing all the thinking for the rest of us.

Oh, but it is an open thread. I only opened a new thread because Byzantine Prince evicted us. ~:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

PS: Souforged and Qietus, Get your own thread for that irrelevent discussion.
10-10-2005, 08:52
Quietus

Re: "Good" and "Evil"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soulforged

Ok but natural selection doesn't explains the real caracteristics of an human being, the human being also has a mind wich surpases the simple will of the flesh and the animal instinct.

Does not explain what? Which part?

Quote:

That's where I differ. The conciousness is for me the central part of every human being, it's essence.

You will never pass your brain to your children because the brain and consciousness is only an accessory.

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Ok but I can take the decision wheter to do it or not.

Breathing? Can you live underwater? Can refrain from going to the bathroom for the rest of your life? Can you stop eating?

Quote:

Again sadomasiquism doesn't has to do with survival. Buying a Rolex either, playing with the computer or driving a Ferrari are not about survival. The human life is much more complex than the simple animal.

Man has a more developed brain. (edit: typo) Hence men has more illusions.

Quote:

I can choose between A,B,C,D or E.

Which was my idea not yours. ~:)

Quote:

That's your way to see it. For me the human created society for protection, but also for finding pleasure and abundance, relate with others, organize, write songs. Most of the things we do in society are more oriented to the simple pleasure and enjoying of the abundance that to mere survival.

Simple pleasures are an illusion. Riding a BMW doesn't make you anything. In the end it is reproduction that keeps the species alive. All those little pleasures only there to keep you alive. The longer your live the higher the probability you will reproduce.