Intellegence and Grades, are they proportional?

Well, here's a small rant (that I promise, won't offend anyone.)

I'm relativly smart. Not ingenious, but pretty smart. I act stupid on the forums, but that is on purpose (i.e. It's a hell of a lot easier than being intellegent.) Now, I tend to associate myself with smart people. The girl I'm going to ask out (next time I see her, which is very rare recently because she does morning annoucnements and is usally at the Studio before I even arrive at school) is 3rd in the class, and almost all of my friends are in the top 100 (out of 500+). Now, most of these people say I'm smarter than them; I don't beleive it and deny it; but that's what they say. Even the girl who's third in the class. Anyway, I got my transcript the other day, and I'm at 98th.

Now, I'd be quite a bit higher if my math teacher didn't take 24% of my grade away for no reason in the last week of school (I'll talk to her about it, soon.), but other than that all my grades are very good. Mostly A's, except in Math which I alwasy get a B. My GPA, unweighted, is 3.7 about, but that's because my math teacher decided to kill me with those -24 points (bringing the marking period grade down to a 64), before that it was like 3.86 or somthing. Either way, I get good grades, but not nearly the best. And I don't put effort into it.

And then it occured to me, people tend to judge intellegence soley on grades. GPA, Class Rank, and all that. But there are intellegent people who just don't try, like myself. Laziness. Now, if you get good grades, you're relativly smart, but I have to admit, some people get really good grades and are dumb as a stump. They just memorize what they need to, and then forget it. On the other hand, people like myself actually learn the material and apply it as best they can.

Now, I consider 98 out of 500+ unnacceptable, so I'm really going to step it up a notch (I really want to get into NHS, I'll be in NFL [National Forensic's League] very soon, but I want NHS]), but my question to you all is:

Are grades directly related to intellegence?

This applies to test scores as well (For Example, I scored better than somthing like 95% of the state on my last standardized test, but I still don't get the best grades on earth, nor am I smarter than 95% of the state of Pennsylvania). So, please, debate with me.

Stop patting yourself on the back for being such a smart little terd and go do something useful with your life.

And I mean that in the kindest of ways... ~D ~:cheers:

DA

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

Stop patting yourself on the back for being such a smart little terd and go do something useful with your life.

And I mean that in the kindest of ways... ~D ~:cheers:

DA

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Actually I was asking if Grades and smartess are related as much as some people say. ~:confused:
EDIT: By the way, I want to go to either VMI or into the Marines/Airforce, so I guess you can say I will be doing somthing usefull with my life.

No, they are not related.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince

No, they are not related.

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My thoughts exactly ~:)

book smarts are completely unrelated to being socially smart or street saavy.

In my school, it certainly took intelligence to get good grades. Intelligence does not imply good grades, although I would suspect that they are decently correlated. You only need good grades if you want to go to a prestigous school anyways.

Exactly. Education in my school can be a joke sometimes. I just don't do the stuff, it's so condesending.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

public education will give you niether of those three.

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none not neither. "neither" correctly refers only to two choices. :book:




+1



p.s. i' am extraordinarily smart, and my grades where beyond comprehension at all levels. therefor, there is a necessary direct correlation between intelligence and grades. well, when you are an unworldly genius, at least. i bow to myself. :bow:

No.

Of course, my own grades weren't outstanding, but my SAT scores got me into the college I'm in now. Let's just say I'm at either extreme (though not that extreme) of the GPA average and SAT average for my college. And I wouldn't want to switch the what was over the average and under.

Grades are nice, but all they do is reflect a willingness to slog through stuff.

Crazed Rabbit

Intelligence is like height is for a basketballer. If you don't show that you can use that height you are just tall not a basketballer.

Grades are like turning up to practice. It shows that you have the ability to study and push yourself.

Intelligence that is not applied is like a body that does not exercise. Sure you might keep your form for awhile but you will deteriorate .

There are alot of ways to learning that teachers do not teach. There is a lot of fundamentals that can make your intelligence go further.

Also remember you are not competing against your school you are in competition with everyone.

The advantage of being home schooled is that you are given one-on-one instruction instead of being a part of a "system" that doesnt care about you as an individual.
I'm homeschooled, and I consider myself to be pretty smart, but I'm about average in some subjects such as math. However, I do not have the ambition to go to college. I'm perfectly happy with my station in life.
I'm pretty sure that if the "system" was revamped to take care of the individual needs, we would be seeing a lot less in the way of AOL rejects (IE: oMg U r0xx0rz mY b0xx0rz d00dz) online. :tongueg:

If you can't cut it in a proper school, and have to be taught at home, there is no way you are ever going to cope in real life.

Grades links in with intelligence, but I know smart people who have messed up because they simple haven't done any work. But no stupid people who have managed to do really well through hard work. Pass maybe, but never do really well.

I think it's unintelligent to say that there is a correlation between grades and intelligence. I've seen complete idiots get close to perfect marks all the time. And also there are politicians out there who are complete idiots even though they obviously had the grades to go through Yale.


EDIT: Einstein had bad marks at school.

I would say that intelligence is linked to grades and that Pape gave a good explanation, the more intelligent you are the easier it should be to get good grades.

If you consider yourself intelligent but are not getting the grades you expect then you are either lying to yourself or are too lazy to do the work, either way it's down to you.

I consider myself to be of average intelligence, in that I was always in the top classes at school and got B and C paases in all my subjects, back in the day ~;) , without absolutely no studying or homework. Therefore I would class myself, during my schooldays, as lazy as with a little effort I could have gotten A's (I was given an A for achievement in Physics and an E for effort in my report, really confused my mum). I intended to join the RN and had passed all the exams to be accepted as an artificer when I failed the medical, and as you have previously said that you're undraftable then I wouldn't pin my hopes on the military.

I was lucky, I got an apprenticeship and went to college, hopefully you will be too. I'm still considering doing a degree but I really have no idea what to do, something work related, engineering, maths or safety, or something purely for interest like history or natural history.

Apparently, IQ and school grades have a correlation coefficient of about 0.5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ

So they are highly related. I did some fieldwork looking at Kenyan primary school leavers and their reasoning ability (a kind of IQ) was the single most significant variable affecting their school exam performance. I think this is because a lot of school exam questions test the kind of verbal, analytical and numerical reasoning abilities that are also tested by IQ.

However, this statistically stuff is all to do with averages and there is a lot of variation around the typical pattern. Rather than a simple deterministic positive line relating grades to IQ, think of a scatterplot around that line. Some people do much better at school than one might think given their IQ and some do much worse. As Pape says, work effort is probably the single proximate cause of such deviations.

Ok, how many in here belived that girls are just around 40% more intelligent than boys?

Good, I didn't think so. But their grades do indicate that they are. There is a massive overrepresentation of girls in the higher grades in schools. Then we have to wonder why if we don't believe they aer that much more intelligent than the boys. The simple fact is boys often don't like to sit still... Damn, even I, a bookworm of all standards, loved gym and running around wrestling in the hallways (we even had boxingmatches).

Also, boys hate homework a lot more than girls. When we are done we are done! My grades did not match up to my intelligence that is for sure... So if I'm a comparably good student, then I wonder how low other boys are compared to their intelligence.

Said shortly: School and High School is tilted in favour of girls. Many of the virtues of school are feminine, while few are maskuline.

Intelligence and knowlage are 2 difrent things.

School teaches you knowlage,
Your Born with Inteligence.

No amount of schooling can increase your intelligence,
And no amout of knowlage can make you clever,


So grades and inteligence dont go hand in hand,
But Intelligence can help you Learn the knolwage that Schools teach.

So there is a Small part of your grades that could imply intelligence.
Although as Einstein said,

Imagination is more Importaint than knowlage.

Grades are not directly related to intelligence. That said, they are necessary for others to judge if you're suitable for a particular school/university/job, although they should only be considered a guideline.

Totally unrelated. According to some psychiatrist who was analyzing me for being a brat, I had a 145 IQ when I was 13. I also failed almost every class I took and had to repeat 8th grade. The lesson? The psychiatrist was an idiot.

But seriously, I agree with everyone here who says public education is a piece of crap. I dropped out of high school and went back to take a couple tests and get a diploma so I could get into the military.

I will never send my children through the public education system. It is an oppressive, tyranical, uninspired, self-serving bureaucracy.

:book: :embarassed: :whip: :wall:

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Apparently, IQ and school grades have a correlation coefficient of about 0.5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ

So they are highly related. I did some fieldwork looking at Kenyan primary school leavers and their reasoning ability (a kind of IQ) was the single most significant variable affecting their school exam performance. I think this is because a lot of school exam questions test the kind of verbal, analytical and numerical reasoning abilities that are also tested by IQ.

However, this statistically stuff is all to do with averages and there is a lot of variation around the typical pattern. Rather than a simple deterministic positive line relating grades to IQ, think of a scatterplot around that line. Some people do much better at school than one might think given their IQ and some do much worse. As Pape says, work effort is probably the single proximate cause of such deviations.

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Simon:

I read the wiki piece you linked, but without knowing the reliability score and specific validity procedures used in a study, a correlation coefficient is hard to evaluate. 0.5 is usually thought of as a "substantial" correlation, but it is a step to say they are "highly related." As you know, it is possible to show a 0.8+ correlation between the number of churches in a community and the number of prostitutes, but to say they are related to one another is a different step entirely.

I agree with Pappy and yourself that intelligence certainly doesn't hamper learning, but the number one component is hard work. I would also add, for formal education, the importance of perseverance. If you simply won't let the system beat you, you'll achieve your objective.

Kaiser:

You are a member of a formal education system. If you want the grades and the accolades, then study the system parameters and game it more effectively. If the system rewards showing up and apple-polishing more than it does intelligence -- and you want the accolade -- then get out a towel and polish apples. You already know how to analyze a game and make it work to your advantage -- its not like we all play RTW the way the people then actually fought their wars. We know the best way to deal with rebellion is to give your own city away to your enemy, let it rebel against her instead, step in, take over, and exterminate. This is not real life, but it works within the context of the game. Learn the game you are playing and then play it to win. You will find that "jumping through the specified hoops" is more likely to get you what you want than is the knowledge of your own intelligence.

Also, GC and Solly are right about "street" smarts and experience -- school systems almost never "test" these and generally only help you improve in those categories by happenstance.

Seamus

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Apparently, IQ and school grades have a correlation coefficient of about 0.5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ

So they are highly related. I did some fieldwork looking at Kenyan primary school leavers and their reasoning ability (a kind of IQ) was the single most significant variable affecting their school exam performance. I think this is because a lot of school exam questions test the kind of verbal, analytical and numerical reasoning abilities that are also tested by IQ.

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A correlation coefficient of 0.5 does not mean highly related. The scale is from -1 (Very Inversely related) through 0 (no relation whatsoever) and 1 (Very related). By related, I mean one factor (grades, for example) goes up when the other factor goes up (IQ).

0.5 is in the middle of totally unrelated and perfectly related. That mean's its somewhat related, and that's not surprising.

I htink also, in meany third world countries, there would be a higher correlation, at least with an intact school system, since kids seem more motivated to learn when they live in bad conditions, and institutional laziness hasn't infiltrated their culture. (Look at the average grades of, say, Indians, in the US. Probably higher than the average student, because they work harder, not because they all have higher IQs)

That concludes your statistics lesson for today. Homework in Chapter 4, problems 12, 16, and 20.*

Crazed Rabbit

*Digression: in my stats book they had a problem 4.20, the 20th problem in chapter four. This problem discussed the possible placebo effect from a relaxing drug given to retirement home patrons. Coincidence....?

I think that there is a connection between intelligence and grades but it is by no means absolute. It has a lot to do with the amount of effort that is applied.

I do think there is a fundamental difference between boys and girls on average. My wife and I are a perfect example, she worked hard and applied herself in high school and got great grades and a full ride scholarship to college, I didn’t apply myself anymore than absolutely necessary and got average grades, plenty good enough to go to the college I wanted. Does that mean she is more intelligent than me? Not according to our IQ scores, mine is 17 points higher than hers~D. But IQ tests are not absolute either.

She thinks she’s smarter than me but I am obviously smarter because I was able to get the “smart” girl to marry me.~;)

Also, I agree with everyone that thinks public schools are crap. I have beat this horse before and wont again here.

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

IShe thinks she’s smarter than me but I am obviously smarter because I was able to get the “smart” girl to marry me.~;)

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Even intelligent women can make a bad decision under the influence of enough alcohol.~;)

...just kidding, I married a brighter and more loving woman than I deserved, and she wasn't drunk when she said yes. I'll forward all of your condolences to her, but as for me...I win, I win!~D ~D ~D

Seamus

Am I dumb? I nearly had to re-do the last year because of my grades. That is:

Got very bad grades without any, ANY effort and with a lot of missing times in school in the first half of the year.

Got myself up the 2nd half to learn a little (a LOT in maths and latin) and I passed by the bottom line.

I really do not want to see myself as an idiot, I really don't. I always think that I'm far more thoughtful and interested in matters like politics, philosophy ,languages,military tactics,history and art, as I taught myself nearly everything I know myself , but somehow my grades make me feel very bad about myself and get me down all the time.

Am I dumb?

You can learn the every single street, lane or avenue of a city if you work hard to get it from the maps. The city is as familiar as your palm.

But it is intelligence that can lead you out of trouble if one of these streets is clogged or stuck.

Success has something to do with hard-working, that's undeniable. However, they are the intelligent peaople that work hard who leave remarks behind them.

I am one of those lazy smarties. Many people praise my creativity. Let's look what I got up to now at the age of 21. Nothing.. If only I could go berserk for my ambitions.

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Originally Posted by Arcanum

Am I dumb? I nearly had to re-do the last year because of my grades. That is:

Got very bad grades without any, ANY effort and with a lot of missing times in school in the first half of the year.

Got myself up the 2nd half to learn a little (a LOT in maths and latin) and I passed by the bottom line.

I really do not want to see myself as an idiot, I really don't. I always think that I'm far more thoughtful and interested in matters like politics, philosophy ,languages,military tactics,history and art, as I taught myself nearly everything I know myself , but somehow my grades make me feel very bad about myself and get me down all the time.

Am I dumb?

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“Stupid is as stupid does.” – Forest Gump

I don’t think someone who is dumb would question weather he is dumb or not. Do you ever shake your head at how dumb others are? If you do, you’re probably not that dumb.~:)


Way to get the smart girl Seamus! ~:cheers:
Not alcohol either huh, well If we ever figure out the real reason our women marry us we should write a book.~D

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

A correlation coefficient of 0.5 does not mean highly related.

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Well, I am not even sure what "highly related" means, so you may have a point. :embarassed:

It probably varies by type of variable (social science vs physical) and by unit of observation (individuals, countries, etc). I mainly work with micro level socio-economic data on individuals and households - ie the same kind of data you would use to analyse links between IQ and school grades. In my experience, I seldom come across correlation coefficients as high as 0.5[1]. That implies one variable "explains" 25% of the variation in the other. For example, in a lot of cross-sectional work, it's not unusual to find all your explanatory variables "explaining" 25% or less of the variation in the dependent variable. (By contrast, with time series macro data, e.g. on country's not individual's, your models would routinely be "explaining" 95%+ of the variation.)

Kraxis, the wikipedia link refers to a high level US scientific review of the evidence between IQ and outcomes like school grades. It makes the point that IQ is correlated with grades within populations (e.g. boys) but not necessarily between them. (We don't want to go into the IQ race dispute here, please.) However, the work I did in Kenya was explaining why girls do less well than boys in school. Female academic superiority in the UK is a fairly recent thing (at least at later ages) and probably reflects cultural and economic changes. Interestingly, in Kenya, I found that in the regions where girls did less well than boys in their school grades, they also had lower reasoning ability. Where there was parity in grades, there was parity in reasoning ability.

To me, this suggests that to some extent (25%?), IQ and school grades measure the same things - inter alia, the ability to pass tests. ~;)

[1]For example, the correlation between households' total income per capita and total expenditure per capita in some Ugandan data I'm looking at is only 0.59.

Grades and intelligence are certainly related.. but not dependent on one another.
I think there are quite a few intelligent people out there who are just intelligent enough to get by with fairly good grades, without putting too much effort into it.

Street savy ... well that's more along the lines of widom in my opinion. Which is a bit different from intelligence.
I've known people who could recite pages of law text. They could also solve some mean and nasty logic problems (talking math logics here), but were/are unable to order a frickin' pizza.... not to mention being able to survive for ek in a non urban enviroment.

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

So they are highly related. I did some fieldwork looking at Kenyan primary school leavers and their reasoning ability (a kind of IQ) was the single most significant variable affecting their school exam performance. I think this is because a lot of school exam questions test the kind of verbal, analytical and numerical reasoning abilities that are also tested by IQ.

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The chief problem with this piece of evidence is that you are correlating their IQs with their performance on TESTS, not their grades. Tests measure knowledge, but grades almost always do not. Grades, especially on the High School level and below, mostly measure how much homework you did, how many labs you showed up for; how good your learning technique was, as opposed to you actual learning.

In other words, the fact that Kenyan kids who did well on one test happened to also do well on another test... is pretty intuitive and means nothing for the current discussion.

DA