Killing the Horde HA...I think I've got the secret

Now I have discovered a secret to forcing those Horde Archers into combat without their bow and arrows.

If you march your Army to the edge of the map where the Horde is coming from (After routing them during their initial attack). place your units as far forward as possible. There is a point here the computer will not allow you to move any further. Yea, that’s the point. You’ll also need to move your rally point all the way up also.

The computer will not allow the Horde to fire their missiles until they are on the portion of the map that also allows you to maneuver. To do so, they have to go through your spears and melee troops . As soon as they make contact, they can’t maneuver (run away and evade) backwards. They are forced to fight.

If you put good troops up front, they die by the score. But don’t let that fool ya. They are still pretty good fighters and will rout exhausted units fast. And if you don’t have enough back up, a few units will get through and harass your rear. When the horde heavy cavalry show up (hundreds at a time), and rout a couple of your units anyway, a couple of Horde Archery units will always make it through, but not dozes of units at a time. If the horde heavy cavalry break through, they stay and fight while stabbing your troops in the back.

Try it and see the battle field change colors. Coated with wall to wall dead horses and bodies. Really nasty.

Actually, if a unit engages head on, they can get out when they aren't merging into a giant blob of 2d sprite death.

The best way to kill HA are crossbows/regular archers and fast horse.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

The best way to kill HA are crossbows/regular archers and fast horse.

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Yep, especially in combination with trees. I also prefer to fight fire with fire rather than exploiting the game's limitations (quite literally, in this case).

Camels. ~:joker: Or I just swing from the trees, it's more fun and your enemy doesn't die from laughter.

Longbows are actually the best ranged killer in the game IMHO. They have a good range-hide them behind arms to reduce damage-AP and the fire rate of a normal bow.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Longbows are actually the best ranged killer in the game IMHO. They have a good range-hide them behind arms to reduce damage-AP and the fire rate of a normal bow.

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You only need to replace them quite often. Thier ammo doesn't last long enough in long battles.

Silver CS or Saracen inf, arbs and some cav to kill the mongol foot archers and to chase away the depleated HA (by causing them to rout), works best imo.

Against the mongols and turks, I always keep 3 stacks of Lbows in reserve for those hour long battles.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Longbows are actually the best ranged killer in the game IMHO. They have a good range-hide them behind arms to reduce damage-AP and the fire rate of a normal bow.

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Pav arbs will kill far, far more in the long run.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

Longbows are actually the best ranged killer in the game IMHO. They have a good range-hide them behind arms to reduce damage-AP and the fire rate of a normal bow.

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Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

Pav arbs will kill far, far more in the long run.

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Whenever possible, I like to use them both in combination: a 2-deep line of pavs backed up by a unit of longbows. Put a couple of those side-by side and virtually nothing the AI can throw at you stands up.

I find the longbows (especially the Welsh Longbows in XL) better at decapitating the enemy army when their General comes within missle range - they have that high rate of fire. When you want to take out one specific target quickly, they're better than Pav Arbs. For sustained AP firepower, the pavs are better - they don't flush all their ammo all at once out at the enemy, and keep the negative morale factor going longer.

Since the pavs are highly resistant to enemy missle fire, and since the AI tends to target the closest unit, pavs out in front of the longbows help keep them both alive longer. They make a great team!

For the same build requirements as pav arbalesters you can build +1 valour arbalesters. I find that the ai tends to shoot at the massed spear behind, so the pavise just slows the arbalesters down when they skirmish away.

I mostly play with bkb's supermod, and there's nothing like Balkan warband for chewing the horde's heavy cav. But the general advice of quality spear/arbalesters to fight the horde is best.

As for fighting them against the backline, I've found this to be a real no-no. The AI archers can shoot before they are properly on the field to be engaged, and worse the ai's melee troops can attack before they can be selected as a target.

The biggest GH slaughter I've managed in the standard game was as the english. 15 units of billmen, 1 quality general. Formed a square in the woods of Lithuania. The horse archers were ignored and any heavy cav that came into the woods got a really nasty surprise.

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Originally Posted by The Grand Inquisitor

For the same build requirements as pav arbalesters you can build +1 valour arbalesters. I find that the ai tends to shoot at the massed spear behind, so the pavise just slows the arbalesters down when they skirmish away.

I mostly play with bkb's supermod, and there's nothing like Balkan warband for chewing the horde's heavy cav. But the general advice of quality spear/arbalesters to fight the horde is best.

As for fighting them against the backline, I've found this to be a real no-no. The AI archers can shoot before they are properly on the field to be engaged, and worse the ai's melee troops can attack before they can be selected as a target.

The biggest GH slaughter I've managed in the standard game was as the english. 15 units of billmen, 1 quality general. Formed a square in the woods of Lithuania. The horse archers were ignored and any heavy cav that came into the woods got a really nasty surprise.

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Pretty much agree with everything you've said - I like +1 valor arbs over plain pavs when on attack (they move so much better!), but on defense the pavise is very beneficial in reducing missle casualties - so much so it's almost indispensable.

Also like BKB's mod, but GA is broken in the current non-beta versions. That should be fixed soon, so I'll be giving it another whirl next time around. For now, I'm happy as a clam with XL mod.

In my current Irish/Early/Expert/XL campaign, the only loss I've suffered in 150+ years was due to getting overconfident and letting part of my army move up to the enemy backline chasing routers, etc. I thought they'd suffered enough losses to trigger a withdrawal, but instead their fresh reinforcements proved to be just enough to overwhelm my tired troops and cause a mass rout. I'm not making that mistake again!

My biggest GH slaughter was coincidentally also as English in Lithuania, with an army consisting mostly of Billmen. I didn't use quite so many, substituting a few Pav Arbs, Longbows, some CFKs, a couple of CKs, and an odd Jinette or two. I set my missle troops up at the forest edge, with most CFKs and Bills backing them up (kept a couple Bills in reserve just in case). The cav stayed hidden in the woods. The missle troops could outshoot the GH Warriors and HAs, when the Heavies charged my light troops would skirmish back into the trees while the CFKs and Bills would countercharge. When all the GH Heavies were gone (which didn't take long - cav fighting polearms in the trees!), and most of the HAs attritted heavily, the CK and Jinettes came out to play and made them rout. A very lopsided battle indeed - GH losses in the thousands, English less than 200. :bow:

I agree, I use pavise arbs infront of my archers. The pavise is the most cost effective/best arrow defense in the game. I do prefer L-bows to Arbs though. I usually put my L-bows on hold fire after the initial wave routs and pick apart the horde piecemeal. The brute force that L-bows can put down is beyond compare. On the other hand, I leave arbs on FAW to keep up a continuous supressive fire because their expend their bolts so slowly.

Most of the time, I rely on L-bows behind 2 man thick pavise line. After the battlelines are joined, pavises don't really work all that well. Regular arbs are okay but need line of sight. Both don't shine in melee, better speedbumps than flankers most of the time. L-bows on the other hand are actually fairly okay flankers with three attack and one charge. It depends on alot of things, but I usually pick L-bow missiles over Pav missiles as England.