Death crash teenagers identified

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Details are emerging about five teenagers killed when a stolen car crashed in East Sussex on Saturday.
Kelly Goring, 17, Daniel Carwardine and Danielle Martin, both 16, and Barrie Mackay and Lee Morgan, both 15, died in the smash, which involved a police car.

It has been revealed there was no impact between the police vehicle and the stolen car, which was a Metro.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) is investigating because of the police involvement.

Lee Carwardine, the father of Daniel, said all the families who lost children in the crash were "heartbroken".

"It's just like a nightmare," said Mr Carwardine.

"I just want someone to wake me up. And it's not just me, it's four other families as well."

Mr Carwardine described his son, a trainee mechanic from St Leonards, as a good boy.

He said he first became worried when his son failed to return home on Friday night.

"I heard about the crash on the radio and went down to the scene and my stomach turned. I just knew he was involved and my heart missed a beat."

The accident happened at 0142 BST on Battle Road, St Leonards.

Police officers in a marked vehicle made contact with the Metro two minutes before the crash.

The IPCC has refused to confirm whether the car was stolen, but the car's owner, Matthew Baker, from St Leonards, East Sussex, told BBC South East Today it was taken from his house.

Mr Baker said his father noticed his car had been taken at about 0630 BST.

Michelle O'Callaghan, who runs a local video store in Battle Road, added: "Teenagers have been coming in all day saying the car was stolen and that the police were chasing them."

The car hit a lamppost, three walls and another car parked on a driveway.

IPCC deputy commissioner Mike Franklin described the incident as a "terrible, terrible accident", but would not say whether or not officers in a marked patrol car were involved in a chase with the Metro.

He said: "We are keeping an open mind at this stage. We understand that they (officers) were at the accident scene very quickly so they could not have been far away.

"This tragedy is extremely distressing for everybody involved, The investigation into the circumstances has been continuing throughout the weekend and I will ensure that we get to the bottom of what happened and why."

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OK please be careful how you answer this. I will ask for the thread to be closed if I feel it is getting out of hand

My initial thoughts are if they had not stolen the car then would still be alive, I also am glad that they did not kill anybody else. But I do feel it is a waste of life. But I do find it difficult to understand why they would steal somebodies car. I have never been able to understand what makes joyriders tick. I quite regulary see burnt out cars on the way into Birmingham and I am always asking myself why ?

The second thought I had is how should the Police be handling this. I expect that they will get the blame in some quarters for chasing the stolen car, but what are they expected to do. How should they handle this differently, or should they

Any comments please

Easy - let the investigation run its due course. If the vehicle was stolen - then its the fault of the people who stole the vehicle. If the vehicle was not stolen - then it gets more complex - does it not?

Edit: wanted to add - do the police there have rules regarding chasing stolen vehicles or criminals that are using high speeds to evade the police?

However from the description in the story - which most likely lacks the information that the police are looking at to determine cause - it does indeed seem to be the fault of the individual who stole the vehicle.

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"It's just like a nightmare," said Mr Carwardine. "I just want someone to wake me up."

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Tough luck. Mr Carwardine should have woken up earlier...

What sort of idiot steals a Metro ?????

Yea poor choice of car but maybe it was the only one the trainee mechanic could get into?

What a waste. I wonder how the police investigation will develop, and how it will be viewed by the families and public. With the information given I'd say it's lucky no-one else was hurt by the joyriders.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

If the vehicle was stolen - then its the fault of the people who stole the vehicle. If the vehicle was not stolen - then it gets more complex - does it not?

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The kids weren't allowed to drive legally regardless of whether it was stolen or not; it doesn't look like any of them were over 18.

You can legally drive in the UK at 17.

Ah. My mistake.

hey np, just pleased to be able to help. ~;)

Maybe a bit harsh, but if you steal a car and run from the police and get killed in the process its your own damn fault.

ichi:bow:

ps my condolences to the family and friends of the kids

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Originally Posted by ichi

Maybe a bit harsh, but if you steal a car and run from the police and get killed in the process its your own damn fault.

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DEATH not= STEAL. If in the process the police interveins and because of this intevention is that they end up dead, then that's another matter.

If the vehicle was stolen, I daresay they had it coming. If not, it is a tragedy but there is nothing we can do as of now.

do the police there have rules regarding chasing stolen vehicles or criminals that are using high speeds to evade the police?
Yep descisions are taken in regards to whether a pursuit would be more dangerous to the general public than the need to catch the criminals .
Since it appears (so far) that the police only spotted the car 2 minute before the crash was there enough time to ascertain that danger ?
The Metro is a small car (a real crapheap to be precise) that is designed as a runabout , it is not stable at speed and 5 young adults in the car would have added to the instability without even taking into consideration the probable inexperience of the driver .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

do the police there have rules regarding chasing stolen vehicles or criminals that are using high speeds to evade the police?
Yep descisions are taken in regards to whether a pursuit would be more dangerous to the general public than the need to catch the criminals .
Since it appears (so far) that the police only spotted the car 2 minute before the crash was there enough time to ascertain that danger ?

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Two minutes is both a lifetime and two short of a time when under stress - hard one to say - but it beginning to sound more of the fault of the driver of the car then anything the police did or did not do.

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The Metro is a small car (a real crapheap to be precise) that is designed as a runabout , it is not stable at speed and 5 young adults in the car would have added to the instability without even taking into consideration the probable inexperience of the driver .

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That again compounds the issue toward the driver of the vehicle and his actions verus what the police might have done in pursueing the vehicle to apprend the young teenagers while they were in the midst of their mischief.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

DEATH not= STEAL. If in the process the police interveins and because of this intevention is that they end up dead, then that's another matter.

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The police can not protect everyone from their own stupidity.

As long as the police didn't force them off the road then the criminals are responsible for the consequences of their own actions.

However it should be reviewed to see if things could be done better in the future. Unless the death penalty exists for stealing vehicles then what happened to them is out of proportion to the crime. Note though it was the criminals who self adminstrated their punishment not the police.

It was their lives to choose. One of the issues is they are all young adults, who aren't considered mature enough to vote or do many other things in adult society. Their lack of maturity lead them to choose an action which consequence I doubt they were fully aware of. But is this societies fault for not prosecuting young offenders to the full extent of the law. They probably thought as juvs they would have got a slap on the wrist. Maybe the lack of discipline from society, family and self are ultimately responsible. I would rate the last two as key.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

The police can not protect everyone from their own stupidity.

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Agree Red, but I didn't put the blame on the "dogs". I just don't like people saying they saw it coming, or they brought it upon themselves. The fact that they've stolen it, or even hitted someone doesn't turns it in a lesser tragedy.
Though I must say, if you forgive me, that you seem to have a tendence to defend the cops.~;)

What have the cops done in this situation?

Pursued criminals.

What are cops supposed to do?

Pursue criminals.

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What does society say about excessive speed?

Don't do it, you can hurt yourself and others.

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Who forced the criminals to steal the car?

The criminals choose to do so.

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Who is responsible for the consequences of their actions?

Adults are. The issue here is are these adults or children.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

What sort of idiot steals a Metro ?????

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That was my fist thought, too!~:joker:



Anyway, you play you pay. Can’t die in a stolen car if you don’t ever steel a car.

I've made some very stupid choices in my life, many of which could have cost me my life. I was lucky; I'm grateful, and I've learned some. Some aren't so lucky, and pay a heavy--sometimes ultimate--price. But their "stupidity" is no reason for me to withhold my compassion. Have we not all made foolish choices at one time or another? My condolences to those who loved them.

In an indirect way, this way of thinking reminds me of when I had a young adult breaking into my kitchen window, using a long, pointy screwdriver (a stabbing weapon by California law, and justification to shoot if he'd been in my house and "threatening me"; he was moments away from fulfilling this condition). I had him in the sights of my Glock .40 cal pistol, and could have waited for him to make his way inside, as he was not aware of me. I'd been burglarized twice recently, to the tune of over 20,000 dollars--by the same group of latino youth "gangstas." In the brief time I had to consider, my anger, frustration, and desire for justice/revenge was overridden by the simple realization that this young fool most likely had a mother and father who loved him, and brothers and sisters, grandmas and grandpas, aunts and uncles and cousins, and friends. His stupidity--in this case--did not warrant his death, though under the circumstances I could have taken his life and almost assuredly been judged "within the law." After the fact, the majority of my friends told me that I should have delivered to him what he "deserved." But I scared him off before he entered. As a result, because they knew I could identify him, the entire gang subsequently engaged in intimidation tactics against me, that escalated until I ended up having to move out of the house that I grew up in. Sure, I am very frustrated and angry about how it all turned out. But I know I did the right thing.

Life is "sacred," and imo, should not be trivialized. Those who make light of the loss of another's life, imo, have lost touch with one of the most important aspects of their humanity.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Agree Red, but I didn't put the blame on the "dogs". I just don't like people saying they saw it coming, or they brought it upon themselves. The fact that they've stolen it, or even hitted someone doesn't turns it in a lesser tragedy.
Though I must say, if you forgive me, that you seem to have a tendence to defend the cops.~;)

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In this case the police seem to have done no wrong - so I give them the benefit of the doubt. You might want to try being a police officer before you critize them over much for just performing the functions that is required of them by their job - and that job is one we citizens ask them to do in a democratic society.


In this instance no evidence comes into being that makes one question the motives nor the actions of the police officer. Everything points to the driver of the stolen car.

Its a shame that 5 young people died doing what amounts to a harmless crime against property - well until the driver decided it was necessary to run from the police. Running from the police is often a stupid move and has deadly consequences most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

In this case the police seem to have done no wrong - so I give them the benefit of the doubt. You might want to try being a police officer before you critize them over much for just performing the functions that is required of them by their job - and that job is one we citizens ask them to do in a democratic society.

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Exactly my thoughts...Well years ago when I liked the dogs...and...I was not an anarchist. Sure you understand...Btw I give them the benefit of the doubt, I don't even blame them, I just worked with hipotetical situations.

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Its a shame that 5 young people died doing what amounts to a harmless crime against property - well until the driver decided it was necessary to run from the police. Running from the police is often a stupid move and has deadly consequences most of the time.

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Of course it's stupid, but no citizen should be forced to abide to the authorities.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Exactly my thoughts...Well years ago when I liked the dogs...and...I was not an anarchist. Sure you understand...Btw I give them the benefit of the doubt, I don't even blame them, I just worked with hipotetical situations.

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Fair enough

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Of course it's stupid, but no citizen should be forced to abide to the authorities.

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They were not being forced to abide to the authority in an unneccessary way, since they were involation of the law. They chose not to follow the law and proceeded to do a very stupid thing. And they suffered the ulitmate price for their decisions. The decision - was made by them - not by the authoriy.

Actually, I wonder how many people in the car were telling the driver to stop and let them out. Granted, they shoudln't have gotten in the car to begin with if they knew it was stolen, but stealing a car is on a different page than eluding police on a high speed chase. Their blood is on the hands of the driver. It's always sad when the stupidity/defiance of a family or friend gets those who trust him killed.

When you steal a car and run from the police there's a very real chance that you will get hurt. These people were unlucky, sure, but they should've realized that it could happen, and they made the choice to do it anyway.

It's sad that they died, but maybe it will stop other kids from doing the same, and that might save their lives.

Of course, if the car wasn't stolen, it's a whole other issue.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

They were not being forced to abide to the authority in an unneccessary way, since they were involation of the law. They chose not to follow the law and proceeded to do a very stupid thing. And they suffered the ulitmate price for their decisions. The decision - was made by them - not by the authoriy.

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You know of what I was talking about man...You know the discussion of some months ago (or was it weeks ~:confused: ). The point is that the person should not be forced even to respond to the police in any given case, they've all the mediums to scape and make that scape effective if they want. But let's just drop it here, I don't like where this is going.~;)

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

You know of what I was talking about man...You know the discussion of some months ago (or was it weeks ~:confused: ). The point is that the person should not be forced even to respond to the police in any given case, they've all the mediums to scape and make that scape effective if they want. But let's just drop it here, I don't like where this is going.~;)

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Of course I know what your talking about - I didn't agree with it then - and I don't agree with it now. In a law abiding society - The citizen has an obligation to abide by the law - when they break the law - the police have the duty to apprehend (spelling) those who are breaking the law.

How those laws are determined can be from several political systems - be it communism, socialism, democracy, or a representive republic.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Of course I know what your talking about - I didn't agree with it then - and I don't agree with it now. In a law abiding society - The citizen has an obligation to abide by the law - when they break the law - the police have the duty to apprehend (spelling) those who are breaking the law.

How those laws are determined can be from several political systems - be it communism, socialism, democracy, or a representive republic.

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OK...

My first thought was that joy-riders deserve what they get in cases like this - although death is a bit harsh.
Then I heard that the driver was a trainee car mechanic, and thought that he was even more stupid to do something like this.
Then I heard the Dad's comment "...nightmare..." and thought parents need to take more responsibility. Certainly I intend to make sure my kid is never involved in stuff like this, but then I suppose I'll have to wait 16 years to find out what he will be like then.

I think this story has some relevance in DevDave's thread about Idiots and Evolution.