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I just hate the television news - I just watched a news report talking about roits in France - they mentioned it was over some event involving the deaths of two teens and the police - but did not really cover that story or the riot. It was all of about 10 seconds on CNN. Edit: No wonder why I have come to detest the brain drain box.
Does anyone know what the story really was about...
I'm sure some of our European friends can shed more light on the situation than me, but I'll give you what I know.
France has been having major social problems for a long time now due to the massive influx poor immigrants, mainly of North African and African descent. There are several areas of Paris in particular that are ghettos where these people live. They feel neglected by the French government and feel like they are being abused and exploited.
Unrest has been growing for a long time with several particular items contributing the most. The Headscarf Ban, though relatively accepted from what I hear now, provoked a feeling of discrimination amonst this largely muslim population. In addition there have been a string of deadly fires in the poor districts of Paris over the last six months or so. Many people have died and despite huge uproars and complaints over the safety of the buildings and the response of the fire department, the fires continued to happen and people continued to die.
The riots themselves were sparked after two local youths were electrocuted to death when they fled from police into an electrical relay station. Both sides have their own story as to why and how this happened, but it has taken on something of a Rodney King aspect to it for the locals. Protests turned violent and that's where we are today.
Okay here is the news print story from the same Brain Drain Box cable station that ran the story
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu...ce.riots.reut/
~:mecry: Seen from France :
There has been problems in our "suburbs"(understand big, ugly buildings with zounds of flats) since the 70s. Poor tend to go there as it's too costly to go elsewhere, & most 1st generation immigrants tend to be poor.
So you have a different population stuck over there, poorer, & with a massive immigrant part. Add to it the myth that immigrants would "come back to their country" after a few years of making money(who would come back to a poor dictature with a failing health system? when living in France?), and you'll have a grasp upon the level of ignorance each part of the population hold the other one in.
The beginning of the story itself is really enlightening of our current mess. There is a burglary. It happens. Some cops come so see what's happening. Those 3 kids(and many others), not known of police, not criminals, not involved in the burglary, all honest, flee the police as if they were criminals. Then 2 of them die in an accident. And then Sarkozy the ******, our beloved minister of interior, did say they were criminals seeked for the burglary.....
Of course, they killed themselves. That's not their death that caused the riots - that's what's lying behind. Racism is an unfortunate truth in our country, & it's tougher to find a job when you're arab or black. That plus Sarkozy's agressive behaviour towards people living therein, & you have the ingredients for riots, & not only in Clichy-sous-Bois.
Myself did witness the behaviour of cops in the railway station. Me white have no problem. Blacks are, mmmmh, not that well treated. That's not really violence, just that they are far more annoyed. And it gets on their nerves. Same for arabs.
The "headscarf ban" in itself is just an example of misunderstanding between communities. The problem is deeper. And when my colleague in front of me says that Azouz Begag should not be allowed to be minister as he's arab, I fear we're not out of that mess ~:mecry:
I saw this on my one train trip through France. I've no problems standing about looking suspicious, some black guy my age was being hastled by a bunch of transport police endlessly.Quote:
Myself did witness the behaviour of cops in the railway station. Me white have no problem. Blacks are, mmmmh, not that well treated. That's not really violence, just that they are far more annoyed. And it gets on their nerves. Same for arabs.
Thanks el_slapper
The story as reported just didn't make sense - It seems France will be suffering from several problems for many years to come - until from what you described it fixes its immigrantion policies, and a few social ills that have developed over the years because of that. Or am I misreading what you stated?
Then comes the question, why do they take in so many immegrants? There is nothing possitive at all to build up ghettos in the suburbs. I say, those who riot shall imediatly be sent out from France.
This is the same think that happened in the immegrant ghetto of Ronna here in Sweden. Maybe worse... ~:handball:
Real proof of that ? As far as I know, nobody can say if they were involved with the burglary (sp?) or not. And after having worked with this kind of people for a few months, I wouldn't say they were honest ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Those 3 kids(and many others), not known of police, not criminals, not involved in the burglary, all honest, flee the police as if they were criminals. Then 2 of them die in an accident. And then Sarkozy the ******, our beloved minister of interior, did say they were criminals seeked for the burglary.....
They were stupid, and they deserved to die. Pardon me, but I doubt they flee because they were innocent. And if they are stupid enough to die that way, that's their problem.
Oh god, this is the kind of argument I hate. Do you think blacks and arabs have no problem when they want to find a job in other countries ? Now, go and try to find a job in Algeria if you're the average white-french guy. Good luck.Quote:
Of course, they killed themselves. That's not their death that caused the riots - that's what's lying behind. Racism is an unfortunate truth in our country, & it's tougher to find a job when you're arab or black. That plus Sarkozy's agressive behaviour towards people living therein, & you have the ingredients for riots, & not only in Clichy-sous-Bois.
Racism works in the two way. Do you think the average french dislike these people because they are black, or arab ? I'd rather say they dislike them because they hate France, they hate the French, they don't give a crap about rapping a girl, beating to death an old guy because he took a photo of their neighbourhood, and so on. Now, I have no problem with a lot of arabs/blacks. I live in a village with a high non-white population, and there's no serious trouble here (although most of the problems are due to guess what, arab people). But the guys rioting in Clichy should just - at worst - be put in jail until the end of their lives, or - at best - be bombed back to the stone age.
Right now, these cities aren't part of France. They have their own laws, their own customs, and if you don't respect them, you ought to be beaten quite badly if you're lucky, or killed if you're unlucky.
That is what some Conservative Americans here said about New Orleans. Same attitude, same blindness to the truth. Of course places like Clichy are a part of your nation, culture and political make-up; they do not just grow on you overnight. The least you can say is that the rest of France -- the real France as you put it -- helped create them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Come off it Adrian, you consistently posit this line of excrement that suggests that people should not be held responsible for their own actions. You repeatedly suggest that society is responsible for the antecedent conditions creating such incidents and imply that society therefore should just put up with them. This is errant nonsense.
France no more forced these disgruntled immigrants to riot than did the New Orleans PD force people to loot. The individuals involved chose to vent their anger in an illegal and violent fashion. They should take the appropriate punishment. If you are going to "go to the barricades" than you had best be prepared to accept the live fire coming back across them from the ruling authority -- that's how rioting and revolution is played.
Perhaps if humans were capable of communism like ants we wouldn't have any inequity or iniquity and we'd all live is some little socialist utopia. Since that's about as likely as Python's ervine aviation scheme, you could better spend your time thinking of some practical responses such as: limiting immigration, reducing taxes to creat jobs and grow the economy and maybe a little private gun ownership and training to enhance personal safety (that last is just for you Caeser 10).
Find yourself another strawman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Adrian, do not misunderstand me. We (the French) are partly responsible for that situation. By housing all immigrants in a same place, my ancestors seriously screwed things up. But then, some people from these cities achieved to find a job, to get out of here, to found a familly, to create companies...How do you explain that ? If the wished to, they could get a real life. They just don't care about that. They spend their time doing nothing, or burning cars, attacking innocents, throwing stones at firemen and so on and live thanks to drug dealing and to our social system. Period. They are also responsible for their situation (and right now, they are probably more responsible than the average frenchman).Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
When I said this places were out of France, I meant that French laws aren't used here. They have their own laws, based on 'Honor', 'Respect' (as long as raping a girl is considered honorable), their own language and other nonsense like that. Policemen and Firemen are sometimes powerless.
Right, I believe some Communist mayors even contributed to that in order to 'create' a new, socially isolated and economically bereft electorate for themselves. Until French public opinion turned against migrants in the early eighties and began to vote for Le Pen. And those same Communist mayors began bulldozering those same migrant quarters to make place for 'honest' French workers... So do not misunderstand me either, it takes all sorts of idiots to create situations like that. For instance by 'giving up' on those gettos that are in the public eye right now, the French state compounded the problems of many honest migrants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
I also believe there is a protest movement against such customs, led by women and youths from those same quarters. Ni pute, ni soumise, no?Quote:
They have their own laws, based on 'Honor', 'Respect' (as long as raping a girl is considered honorable) and other nonsense like that.
Surely they are French in your book? ~;)
I have had bowel movements that had more substance than this rubbish you posted Adrian. Unbelievable....Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Well, if you ask me, my previous post (the one that could have been written by PJ, Kapo or any american fascist wannabe) sounds disgusting, even for me. I'm the first one to make fun of the people who make this kind of statement, but now, things are going too far.
I wouldn't say I'm not racist, because I think that right now, the Western culture is superior to other cultures. But this is not racism. (Most of) The people in these cities are just savages that deserve to be killed on sight. Whites included. Period. They have no values beside their own utterly limited, barbarian screwed up way of thinking.
Sure, we should do our best in order to help integration, to not build new ghetto cities. But we can't do anything realistic for the current ones, except destroying them, and getting ride of the people who're living here. There's no way they could integrate into the french society, get a job and have a decent life, respectful of their fellow countrymates.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Are you speaking about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
I can't find the substance in your last couple of replies ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Can we stop the anal references in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Look, New Orleans was a special place, and generations of Americans loved and appreciated, admired and coveted it precisely for the vices which you and other Conservatives on this forum excoriated recently, in the wake of Katrina, as being the cause of all New Orleans' ills. Generations of Americans have visited, brought (or lost) their money to New Orleans, and helped foster this loose culture that you now deplore. I remember very well the words of author Richard Ford after Katrina hit that town. 'It is - New Orleans is - a city foremost for special projections, for the things you can't do, see, think, consume, feel, forget up in Jackson or Little Rock or home in Topeka.'
New Orleans was part of America precisely because it was not.
Go on, deny it. I don't care.
I'll stop when you stop posting your masterbation material (Abu Grad pics). Deal?:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianII
Edit: not the right place.
Lets see a thread about France and my honest question about the news report I saw on CNN for a brief second.
Lets see el_slapper and Meneldil give what seems an honest personal opinion on the story - and someone who is not french decides to argue using New Orleans as a comparision.
~:joker:
Talking about the wrong approach - especially since this thread was not about New Orleans and the United States - but the riots in France,
Oh well it seems that some people just can not leave the United States out of a discussion - even when its not about the United States.
Oh well I got at least two honest answers in the thread before it degenerated into something else. :bow:
Thinking about it, agreed. Removed my off-topic post.
It is not racism, I have to hand you that. But your solution does not sound appropriate. Or adequate for that matter. After decades of neglect and ignored warnings, we are now seeing the sort of conflagrations in Clichy that we have seen in British inner cities. If you withdraw the rule of law from a vulnerable, socially weak community, violent people and primitive solutions are bound to prevail, as they do in all no-go areas of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meneldil
Like I said, movements like Ni pute, ni soumise also originate in these communities, and there must be more like-minded movements and positive developments that could be the starting points in a drive for real change. Provided there is a real effort. Shoot-to-kill policies such as you advocate will only make the situation worse and prolong the troubles.
Unless, of course, you favour an all-out, SS-type operation that destroys entire blocks or neighbourhoods. In which case you might as well send your warmest regards to Mr Bin Laden.
~:confused:
You're nothing but a pop-up in your own thread. Live with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redleg
https://img31.imageshack.us/img31/34...llengif8to.gif
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Originally Posted by AdrianII
Whats wrong Adrian you don't like being called on using a strawman approach.
By the way you need to wave your ass in your own direction ~:joker: since your making one of yourself. ~:eek:
Why does every other thread in the Backroom have to turn nasty recently? Speaking not as a mod (I have no responsibilities for the Backroom) but as a patron, I think we really need to raise the standard here, people. Is it really necessary to start off a rebuttal by saying what you are rebutting is a "pile of excrement", Seamus? That's just effectively ensuring the person you are trying to rebutt will not engage with you on the substance of what you are saying. And personally, I think it is a pretty cheap way of trying to get around the "foul language" rule. Dave's post in the same vein was not even redeemed by having any substance. Adrian, your "smilie" to Redleg was just fighting fire with fire - and arguably targeting the wrong poster.
There was a time when I could read these threads without my blood boiling, maybe even post and get a decent exchange with Redleg, Adrian or whoever. This thread was informative, until people started being discourteous. I'd like to enter into an exchange with Menedil and El Slapper on the substance of this thread, but right now the bad vibes I'm getting from this thread are literally making me queasy and is putting me off attempting to do so. Similar things have been going on in the Iranian photo thread, the godless Brit thread where I might have liked to have posted but the tone of some of the posts just lowered the quality of the threads to the point where I was happier to see them die. It's just ugly and we should do better.
With these kind of issues we are likely to find the substance of what some others say ugly, even if they express themselves perfectly civilly and respectfully. We owe it to ourselves to try to respond to it in a polite civilised way if any. If we try to debate it in the ugly style displayed here, we may as well just be blowing raspberries at each other.
Maybe I am just being delusional, but I think we used to be better than this. I know we can do better.
~:grouphug:
France need to go through some humiliating changes to survive. Their earlier dominant position in Europe is no longer there and it's hard for the ordinary french citizen to accept that. Viva la France is not so elegant any longer.....
:bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Appleton
Be polite to each other and attack the arguement not the person.
Probaly showing my ingorance here but i'll go ahead and ask in the spirit of getting the discussion back on the tracks.
Do these riots bear any likeness to the race riots and civil rights movement we had here in the United States? From what i've seen it looks to be the same, just with different groups and a tad bit different issues. Do they stem from legal inequality, social level differences, or just riots for no reason?
My response to Adrian was, I agree, crass. However, I did aim my commentary at a view/series of views he has expressed and not at Adrian personally. He is probably a decent bloke, kind to his neighbors, involved in his community and beloved by family, friends, and his pet. I still disagree vehemently with the line he often espouses on such issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio