After Carthaginian gets their phalanx, they are probably the hardest to beat

Even though Greek and Macedon both have phallanx, they don't have auxilaries to back them up. If you have Poeni Infantry as your main battle line, and about 2 units of reserve poeni. Then have elephant as your flank guard. Baelaric Slinger in the back. Couple long shield cavalry. This is probably one of the hardest combination to beat.

If you wanna flank their main battle line, you get stomped on by elephants. If you wanna win with missles, you get stoned by slingers. The only way that I can think of is with siege weapons, but by the time people get siege weapons you probably are already at armored elephants, sacred band and sacred cavalry. And then it's even harder to beat.

Elephants, phalanx and heavy cav the seleucids get too. Plus they have pikes instead of spears, heavy inf and chariots. The only thing they are lacking are quality archers.

I agree once the Carthaginians get the Sacred Band, they are a hard enemy, but that's why you open a can of whoop-a*s on em before they can make em!~:)

It still takes them 2 turns each to turn out sacred band units....and elephants too for that matter....when you consider that a lot of nations can turn out pretty good infantry in 1 turn coupled with how unreliable elephants can be Carthage aren't that great....one of my favourite nations to play as in the campaign though.

Plus the hardest and most important battles will be fought early on against the Romans who have quality low-level infantry....whereas the Carthaginians do not. I think most of my victories in the campaign against the Romans were thanks to city walls....of course as soon as you can field Poeni and a decent amount of elephants (especially against pre-Marian Romans) you win.

Greece has easy access to Cretan Archers (which gives their phalanx great support), though, but their Cav selection is ridiculous shallow, and generally weak. Your stuck with Militia and Greek Cav for the entire game, which makes fighting the Romans late on a heavy task, as Im finding out. Armoured hoplites and Spartans are pretty good though.

Nevertheless, Carthage has the best selection, IMO. Better than Seleucids, Egypt or the Romans. Armoured Elephants behind Poeni and Sacred band infantry, Sacred band cav flanking... magic. The Phalanx makes them unstoppable.

Saturnus is right. A fully developed Seleucid army is very, very tough. Strong phalanx, legion style infantry and great cav, including elephants and chariots. Their army is excellent for every occasion.

The Seleucid Empire has the richest choice, I agree, but I would nevertheless vote for Parthia. Untouchable with the right army composition.

Well if you're going to start that kind of thing, I vote for Numidians. All Numidian light cavalry armies are destroyers of the known world.

Carthage does have a very strong army when everything is available, but the Seleucids edge it for me. Their phalanx units are available early on, and are superior to the basic Carthage infantry, plus Silver Shield Pikemen can when on the defensive slaughter even Spartan Hoplites. And their legionaries are a match for their Roman counterparts and provides the Seleucids with a heavy and mobile infantry force. There isn't a great deal between the two really, aside from Carthage's weak infantry early on. Oh, and lack of Archers. No archers makes things a little trickier for the Carthaginians compared to the Seleucid force. Greek archers might be rubbish, but still preferable to slingers in most cases.

I find that fighting early field battles against romans to be very easy. Your elephants can stomp through all of their stuff onstoppable.

Professor, Armoured Elephants with their missile attack are better than Cretan Archers.

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Originally Posted by professorspatula

Carthage does have a very strong army when everything is available, but the Seleucids edge it for me. Their phalanx units are available early on, and are superior to the basic Carthage infantry, plus Silver Shield Pikemen can when on the defensive slaughter even Spartan Hoplites. And their legionaries are a match for their Roman counterparts and provides the Seleucids with a heavy and mobile infantry force. There isn't a great deal between the two really, aside from Carthage's weak infantry early on. Oh, and lack of Archers. No archers makes things a little trickier for the Carthaginians compared to the Seleucid force. Greek archers might be rubbish, but still preferable to slingers in most cases.

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exactly, the lack of archers I find very annoying, the only reason why I've only tried the Carthaginians for a couple of turns....

I think that's how the AI thinks of it too, since they always seem to - purposely ;)- lose against the ROmans, always.
They never get any elephants ( excludng the starting ones ) let alone Sacred band

The SE have the best al round army, the best of everything ( exept maybe archers, and HA )
So it's hard to compare the SE to the Carthaginians, the thing they have in common though is a hard starting position.

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Garvanko

Professor, Armoured Elephants with their missile attack are better than Cretan Archers.

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I think that´s something we can all agree on but the point is that the Seleucids have Elephants AND archers.

Yes, the Carthaginians are great, but if you look (which I didn't remember to), the Seleucid empire has chariots as well as everything else...

I won't argue the point with you, saturnus. The Seleucids, Carthaginians, Romans and Egyptians all have flexible and powerful armies. Naturally there is a bit of give and take on all ends.

For example, Egypt has both Pharoah's Bowmen (only Foresters are better) and Chariot Archers. Desert Axemen, Gaurds and Desert cav are all good units too. We know all about the Romans, too. Combination of arms, and flexibility on the battlefied is just as important as having every conceivable unit available in one's unit roster. Ergo, in terms of combination of arms and flexibility in the field, I believe carthage has the edge. Its Infantry is on the whole better than anything the Seleucids can throw up. Sacred band are better than Legionaires, while Poeni are marginally better than Silver Shield Pikemen. Of the Cav units, the Seleucids have the edge with Cataphracts, but aside from that have nothing, including Companion cavalry (overrated unit), to challenge the Sacred band or Long/Round Shields cavalry of the carthaginians.

CARTHAGE
Armoured General
Poeni Infantry
Lybian Spearmen
Sacred Band Infantry
Sacred Band Cavalry
Long/Round Shield Cavalry
Balearic Slingers
Armoured Elephants

SELEUCIDS
Armoured General
Legionaires
Silver Shield Pikemen
Cataphracts
Companions
Archers
Scythed Chariots
Armoured Elephants

basically, the only area where the Seleucids have an advantage is in their Cataphracts.

But then again, it's all hearsay. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Garvanko

I For example, Egypt has both Pharoah's Bowmen (only Foresters are better) and Chariot Archers. Desert Axemen, Gaurds and Desert cav are all good units too. We know all about the Romans, too. Combination of arms, and flexibility on the battlefied is just as important as having every conceivable unit available in one's unit roster. Ergo, in terms of combination of arms and flexibility in the field, I believe carthage has the edge. Its Infantry is on the whole better than anything the Seleucids can throw up. Sacred band are better than Legionaires, while Poeni are marginally better than Silver Shield Pikemen. Of the Cav units, the Seleucids have the edge with Cataphracts, but aside from that have nothing, including Companion cavalry (overrated unit), to challenge the Sacred band or Long/Round Shields cavalry of the carthaginians.

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Ok, that was some claim...

Poenis are not 'slightly better' than Silver Shields. Silver Shields rip them apart.
Advantage SS: 1 point better attack, long pike, 50% more men
Advantage Poeni: Slight bonus in desert, 4 points in defense, better mass (which is odd really)
Equal in swords.
Result: SS win easily because of the long pikes and 50% more men. Try it. With swords it is not so easy to determine though.

Sacred Band and SS Legionaries are not meant to go head to head. Sacred Band is supposed to be blocked by SS pikes, in which case they will get worn down (fairly equal fight though). The legionaries add a lot of flexibility to the Seleucid army that the Carthie army simply have none of. They have no strong sword infantry, the Seleucids do. Interesting that you claim that the Cathie army has flexibility on its side when it's only viable strategy is a line of heavy infantry in phalanx where flanking is not going to be easy. The Seleucids can choose to either meet that line with their own line or flank it (legionaries).

Sacred Band vs Companions.
Advantage Comps: Superior charge (19 vs 17)
Advantage SC: 1 point in defense and slight bonus in desert
Equal in swords. This assumes that both parties actually use their cavalry to the fullest and use Alt-attack for a cahrge with the spears and then swords in the melee.
Result: Indecisive. The charge of the Companions can be enough, but at the very least it makes the Companions better against infantry (where the charge is very important), but the 1 point in defense might make up for any disadvantage suffered in the charge for the SC.

Long Shields vs Companions:
Advantage Comps: Charge (19 vs 14), melee (12 vs 9), defense (17 vs 13), stamina (comps are hardy, LS are not), morale (10 vs 8), formation (comps are better formed).
Advantage LS: Speed (medium horse vs heavy horse, there is a speed difference now right?) and slight bonus in desert.
Result: LS utterly crushed.

ehh?

Silver Shield Pikemen will make mincemeat of anything but the heaviest phalanxes; which includes Spartan Hoplites, Armoured Hoplites and Sacred Band Infantry. Don't forget their extra long reach. Four rows of pointy sticks will trump two on most occasions. For the occasions when it won't... enter Silver Shield Legionaries. I don't see how anyone could claim that Carthage's lineup is more diverse and better overall.

Break it down:

Anti-Cavalry Infantry: (factions best phalanx unit)
Anti-Infantry Infantry: (factions best non-phalanx unit)
Heavy Cavalry: (factions best shock cavalry)
Light Cavalry: (factions best fast cavalry)
Missile Infantry: (factions best foot missile unit)
Missile Cavalry: (factions best mounted missile unit)
Special Forces: (factions unique and special units)
Siege Equipment: (factions best technological units)

Selucids:
Anti-Cavalry Infantry: Silver Shield Pikemen. The best pikeman unit in the game (units with 4 effective ranks). Ranks in the top five in head-on matchups with all other phalanx style units. Only matched reliably by Greeks and Carthaginians. Very capable at dispatching cavalry as intended.

Anti-Infantry Infantry: Silver Shield Legionaries. The best non-roman anti-infantry infantry in the game (units designed to be effective in almost all situations). Ranks in the top five in head-on matchups with all other non-phalanx style units. Only matched reliably by Romans. Very capable in a number of roles as intended.

Heavy Cavalry: Cataphracts. The best shock cavalry in the game (units designed for maximum charging potential). Ranks number one in head-on matchups with all other shock cavalry. Only matched reliably by Parthians. Very capable at charging as intended.

Light Cavalry: Companion Cavalry. Truthfully, the Selucids lack a speedy cavalry force to protect their flanks. However, they do possess cavalry-like forces designed for use on the flanks; and these will be covered under Special Forces. Also, it bears noting that the Selucids do not really need a harassing type cavalry force; they are more than capable of beating everyone in a stand-up fight. Thus this lack is essentially unnoticable.

Missile Infantry: Archers. Standard unit, unremarkable in any way. Part of the one "weakness" on a Selucid force. Many other factions have archers with the "long range" feature and stronger statistics. However, it bears noting that in the case at hand, the Carthaginians can only field Slingers... so they still come up short.

Missile Cavalry: Militia Cavalry. Standard unit, unremarkable in any way. The second part of the Selucid's one "weakness". Factions with horse archers have a marked advantage, and even some such as the Numidians are capable of fielding better javilin throwing units. Once again however, it bears noting that the Carthaginians have no sort of Missile Cavalry at all... so they still come up short.

Special Forces: Armored Elephants & Scythed Chariots. Both are extremely powerful units. Properly used, there are no effective counters to either. While Armored Elephants can function either as the driving force in a battering ram or as hammers on the flanks; Scythed Chariots work best by causing chaos by slashing thru the flanks, and especially when used against cavalry. This provides a very powerful force to use on the flanks in contrast to other factions lighter cavalry. The two best all around and most valuable units in the game.

Siege Equipment: Onager. Standard unit, and unremarkable. Carthaginians have a slight edge here with their Siege Onagers; neither is very useful in a field engagement however.

So of the eight arenas, the Selucids have the absolute best troops in two and top five troops in two more. That's four out of eight arenas where they have a marked advantage over almost any force. And it's in the most important no less. Both kinds of Infantry, Heavy Cavalry and Special Forces... the real meat grinders of the battlefield. It's only in the auxilary units that they lack somewhat, but they still have units which can perform the job... they just won't excel at it.

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Now, I'd like to see how any other faction can compare to that? The Romans have the best shot, but they're hindered by their lack of Anti-Cavalry Infantry... one of the big four components to a balanced force.

But the Carthaginians? Please. They lack an Anti-Infantry Infantry all-together. Their Anti-Cavalry Infantry is reliably matched in usefulness. Their Heavy and Light Cavalry are clearly inferior. Even the Selucid weaknesses trump their even greater weaknesses in Missile Infantry and Missile Cavalry. The Selucid Special Forces are better because they offer two powerful units while the Carthaginians can only field one.

So, the only areas they have advantages in are the slight one in Anti-Cavalry Infantry and a slight one in Siege Equipment. The Selucid Silver Shield Pikemen are more than capable of doing their job of holding back cavalry charges, so that can hardly be considered a real advantage. The Carthaginians may have an effective counter to Selucid Cavalry, but the Selucids have one for Carthaginian Cavalry as well. The difference maker is that the Selucids can send in their Legionaries to out-maneauver the Carthaginian phalanxes and slaughter them, and the Carthaginians have no countering Infantry force.

And the difference in Siege Equipment when speaking of field engagments or even city assaults really, is neglible.

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Originally Posted by SMZ

Light Cavalry: Companion Cavalry. Truthfully, the Selucids lack a speedy cavalry force to protect their flanks. However, they do possess cavalry-like forces designed for use on the flanks; and these will be covered under Special Forces. Also, it bears noting that the Selucids do not really need a harassing type cavalry force; they are more than capable of beating everyone in a stand-up fight. Thus this lack is essentially unnoticable.

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Very good list, though I do not agree with you in a few particulars and this one is just not correct.

Greek Cavalry is fast, and thus serves the light cavalry purpose, which it does fairly well, if not spectacularly. Here the Carthies' Round Shields does quite a bit better though.

Ahh - you are correct of course. I neglected to mention the Greek Cavalry, because I so rarely use them. Compared to Cataphracts, anything, even Companion Calvary is fast afterall - lol. Are Round Shields "fast" though? I had thought I had caught them with my Companions before for some reason...

Apologies for merely repeating you on a number of points - I was in the midst of multi-tasking, so the typing went slow... I started before you though :)

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Originally Posted by SMZ

Heavy Cavalry: Cataphracts. The best shock cavalry in the game (units designed for maximum charging potential). Ranks number one in head-on matchups with all other shock cavalry. Only matched reliably by Parthians. Very capable at charging as intended.

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I know that this is nitpicking, but you forgot the Armenians. They have cataphracts also. And the power of cataphracts, even more than in their charge, is in their ability to stay alive and continue fighting when halted and surrounded. Where other cavalry units would be destroyed, or at least suffer massive casualties, cataphracts can often stand and fight their way out. It's thanks to their being so extremely well armored (both rider and horse).

^ iunno why I forgot that... for some reason my brain glitched and I was thinking they had Cappadocians... but that's Pontics...

The point however being, the Selucids are still the uber-force... and definantly better than Carthage.