ASPIS= SHIELD. OPLO= WEAPON. OPLITIS= MAN AT ARMS etc... clearing up....

Since the attention to detail in this mod is quite astonishing and its clearly approaching its first release, I hereby raise some quite divided topics,
1. Whats the teams offical position on the meanings of the words:
OPLO
OPLITIS
2. Whats the teams official position on Erasmian pronounciation?
3. Whats the teams official NON political strictly historical position on the Cultural allocation, in game and in general of the Makedonian kingdom?

Any replies would be sincerely appreciated.

Hellenes

:hide: Not Greek again...

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ΠιΤι εινε αυτο?
Αυτο εινε Ζορβα.

~D

Edit: GAH!
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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?? ???? ?????
???? ???? ?????.

~D
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~:confused:

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It should print Greek, not ????????

https://img525.imageshack.us/img525/...ineafto3wx.jpg

Don't you have WinXP? ~:confused:
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No, I saw the Greek- but I don't know what the hell it says! :help:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hellenes

Since the attention to detail in this mod is quite astonishing and its clearly approaching its first release, I hereby raise some quite divided topics,
1. Whats the teams offical position on the meanings of the words:
OPLO
OPLITIS
2. Whats the teams official position on Erasmian pronounciation?
3. Whats the teams official NON political strictly historical position on the Cultural allocation, in game and in general of the Makedonian kingdom?

Any replies would be sincerely appreciated.

Hellenes

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One fun thing we can do is be vicious to the barbaric Makedonians in the Koinon Hellenon description and texts (from their point of view), but also mock the weakling Athenians and Spartans in the Makedonian description and texts while proclaiming true Makedonian greekness. We get to have the best of both worlds! ~:joker:

Transliterations of names in text won't have to worry about pronunciation thankfully, so we've not had to worry with it yet. I don't know how the origin of the term hoplon discussion figures directly into anything in game actually. It might, but I can't remember it coming up in text.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zorba

No, I saw the Greek- but I don't know what the hell it says! :help:

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What is this?
This is Zorba

~D
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by hellenes

Since the attention to detail in this mod is quite astonishing and its clearly approaching its first release, I hereby raise some quite divided topics,
1. Whats the teams offical position on the meanings of the words:
OPLO
OPLITIS
2. Whats the teams official position on Erasmian pronounciation?
3. Whats the teams official NON political strictly historical position on the Cultural allocation, in game and in general of the Makedonian kingdom?

Any replies would be sincerely appreciated.

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I am really trying NOT to question your sincerity ~;) ~:joker:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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Πι εινε αυτο?
Αυτο εινε Ζορβα.

~D
.

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Your "Greek" is atrocious even for a (mouzafphaerre) guest.. !! ~D ~;p ~:joker:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

One fun thing we can do is be vicious to the barbaric Makedonians in the Koinon Hellenon description and texts (from their point of view), but also mock the weakling Athenians and Spartans in the Makedonian description and texts while proclaiming true Makedonian greekness. We get to have the best of both worlds! ~:joker:

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You bastards.. ~D ~:joker:

O Stratigos :bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hellenes

2. Whats the teams official position on Erasmian pronounciation?

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It doesn't really come up. We're using standard English transliteration for Greek: e.g., Ζ is Z, Θ is TH, Υ is Y or sometimes U, etc. This is a nice compromise, because it doesn't represent anyone's idea of what historical Greek pronunciation was like. ~:joker:

However, I'm pretty sure everyone on the team accepts the universally agreed-upon modern academic reconstruction, which some Greeks apparently call Erasmian (not sure why, since it's quite different from Erasmus' system). You can read a lengthy and apparently detailed explanation of the system itself and some arguments for and against it here, although that page isn't really particularly complete yet.

However, after having lots and lots of arguments with Greeks on the subject (do some searches and you'll probably find examples, be sure to have your forum preferences set to "show all threads"), EB has a "don't argue" policy when it comes to Greek pronunciation, unique among all the topics in history. Any attempt to elicit answers from an EB member will be met with stony silence, lest we be driven to insanity and become unable to complete the mod. ~D

.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by O_Stratigos

Your "Greek" is atrocious even for a (mouzafphaerre) guest.. !! ~D ~;p ~:joker

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My Greek doesn't exist. ~;p

As for Mouzafphaerre, it has nothing to do with "musafir"/"misafir" (مسافر); it's a bastardization of Muzaffer (مضفر): triumphant. ~D

~:joker:
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Quote:

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Originally Posted by hellenes

Since the attention to detail in this mod is quite astonishing and its clearly approaching its first release, I hereby raise some quite divided topics,
1. Whats the teams offical position on the meanings of the words:
OPLO
OPLITIS
2. Whats the teams official position on Erasmian pronounciation?
3. Whats the teams official NON political strictly historical position on the Cultural allocation, in game and in general of the Makedonian kingdom?

Any replies would be sincerely appreciated.

Hellenes

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My official position on 'Erasmian Pronunciantion' is that it is a self-delusional claim by modern Greeks who want to believe that their language is the exact same as a twenty-five hundred year old dialect (attic).

Hoplites and Hoplon are very much an issue of contention in the classics profession. The issue will not be settled by debating it here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

.
ΠιΤι εινε αυτο?
Αυτο εινε Ζορβα.

~D

Edit: GAH!
.

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It's all greek to me ~D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Urnamma

Hoplites and Hoplon are very much an issue of contention in the classics profession. The issue will not be settled by debating it here.

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It's not my intention to start a flamewar, or to offer offense, or anything of that nature... but to those of us ignorant of this issue of contention, could it be summarized for us?

Thanks in advance. :bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mujalumbo

It's not my intention to start a flamewar, or to offer offense, or anything of that nature...

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German monks invented beer as a means of sustenance during fasts. Look where that led. ~D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zorba

German monks invented beer as a means of sustenance during fasts. Look where that led. ~D

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Didn't Mesopotamians or at least the Aigyptioi have beer a few years earlier than that?~D

I'm pretty sure it was the Sumerians ~:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Urnamma

My official position on 'Erasmian Pronunciantion' is that it is a self-delusional claim by modern Greeks who want to believe that their language is the exact same as a twenty-five hundred year old dialect (attic).

Hoplites and Hoplon are very much an issue of contention in the classics profession. The issue will not be settled by debating it here.

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I denounce any Hellene that ever said that our language remained the same for 25 centuries.
I would be stupid to claim something like that....
However since NONE has recorded speech of Ancient Hellenic pronounciation, and NONE can claim beyond any reasonable doubt the posession of the thruth, its left to the strongest argument and closest related dialects that have frozen in time to be taken as more close to the facts.
There are two LIVING hellenic dialects TODAY that are the closest we have to the antiquity:
Pondian Dialect:
Aoύτος- Αυτός - These
Τ' εμ' έταιρον - Δικός μας - Our kin, one of us.
more detailed http://www.rooseveltacademy.org/Main...se/JGL2002.pdf
Cypriot Dialect Espessially the pronounciation:
θωρώ βλέπω Im seeing
λαλώ λέω Im saying
απόπατος αποχωρητήριο toilet

And 70% of modern Hellenic language is formulated and mostly ancient...
Άναυδος---->Voicless from Homeric Αυδή=Voice
Οπλίτης----->Private (Soldier) from Hoplite
Εφεύρεση--->Discovery from Εύρηκα=I found it
And many more that would take the whole forum to fit in...

I know it sounds strange to people that dont have their native writing (sometimes it never existed like english, french etc) and have most of their vocabulary formed in mixing of many other languages, but for a average Modern Hellene isnt that hard to read ancient writings and grasp the general meaning at best and understand more that any not specialised foreigner at worst.

Hellenes

Don't worry, that there was no one person who helps us understand the pronunciation of Ancient Greek (thus removing the straw man that people attempt to knock down), that said pronunciation does differ from modern Greek, and that "hoplon" and other words are still in contention, is not a threat to modern Greece or its culture.

We avoid the whole issue of a modern nation trying to artificially create closer cultural ties to the past (when those ties are already very strong, with no need to make them stronger) by taking an impassionate, academic approach to understanding the real, actual difference in pronunciation and development of ancient Greek, rather than an emotional, political one preferred by some people who examine the past. In this, distance from the language is a benefit, not a drawback, as it allows an objective look rather than a subjective one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khelvan

Don't worry, that there was no one person who helps us understand the pronunciation of Ancient Greek (thus removing the straw man that people attempt to knock down), that said pronunciation does differ from modern Greek, and that "hoplon" and other words are still in contention, is not a threat to modern Greece or its culture.

We avoid the whole issue of a modern nation trying to artificially create closer cultural ties to the past (when those ties are already very strong, with no need to make them stronger) by taking an impassionate, academic approach to understanding the real, actual difference in pronunciation and development of ancient Greek, rather than an emotional, political one preferred by some people who examine the past. In this, distance from the language is a benefit, not a drawback, as it allows an objective look rather than a subjective one.

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But here we are not talking about matters of political debate and as I said it would be stupid and naive for one to persume and debate the language to be Identical to the ancient one.
However as I said a before an average Hellene logically will have an edge over a NON specialised in ancient Greek foreigner...
And no ancient script has audio files included so no matter how much you study ancient greek if you dont at least attempt to learn to speak modern Greek and dialects that have strong elements of Ancient greek and its pronounciation your presumed "neutrality" deprives you of understanding deeper the whole topic of your study...

Hellenes

Questions about the veracity of the contemporary understanding of ancient Greek pronunciation have been raised, here, purely due to political reasons. "Lack of audio tapes" is not a defense. "Lack of audio tapes" doesn't stop us from recreating the pronunciation of other ancient languages, but those aren't challenged as they don't have the political implications that the academic understanding of ancient Greek does.

At this point I have told the team that they are not to debate the merits of the academic understanding of ancient Greek meaning and pronunciation. This is because every argument is a politically, emotionally charged one. We have explained our reasoning time and time again, and only a tiny minority continues to challenge us. We have heard this minority's arguments and reject them, it is time to stop presenting them. I am sorry, but this is the way it has to be.

Accept that we're using the contemporary, acknowledged understanding of these ancient languages or not, but this debate will go nowhere because one side has the world's collective knowledge and the other claims a monopoly on understanding due to cultural heritage. This question will never be decided here and so I will shut down any more debates. We have explained why we are using what we are using, and that is it. We have both SPECIALIZED, non-Greek researchers and TEACHERS of ancient Greek, and modern Greek speakers on our team.

End of debate. Period.