The Pahlavan Cataphract units and suggestions
Ah yes, finally Europa Barbarorum has gone OB. I've waited for this one, and for now, I can safely conclude that the result is wonderful. The skinwork is great and the new map is crisp while offering a wide view of the Iranian heartlands, Sind, and the eastern frontiers of Ferghana. It is obvious that the EB team has been strict on holding their historical ambitions, and one of the more prominent scholars on the Pahlava, Steppe Merc, have showcased excellent knowledge in the Iranian dynasties. One of the top scholars along with rez of the Imperia Romana and Persia: Total War project. Just wanted to begin my first post with some encourageing comments, because EB has high ambitions, and so far managed to carry out many of the goals, in spite of a multitude of bugs. Some of you may have noticed that my nickname asserts a passion for Iranian heavy cavalry. Indeed, the passion is high enough to vouch for historical studies in pre-Islamic Iranian empires at an academical level. My congratulations to you, khelvan for the current success of EB.
Now, I shall conclude my praise, and for now bring up a few suggestions for the future incarnations of the Parthian cataphracts and the surrounding Iranian nomad HC units. For now, I think the Zradhra Pahlavans look quite uninspired, and generic, compared to the hellenic cataphracts of the Seleucid and Bactrian dominions. I do know from archaelogical evidence that cataphract armour for the Seleucids was not completely covering and left the charger's neck (Crinet-segment) exposed (In it's own right, this usually meant some flexibility and agility advantages for the charger), while Parthians rarely made use of the hellenic layout. The Dehbed cavalry did exist and formed the bulk of the cataphract cavalry, yet the heaviest of nobles, were fully covered. The tradition of using a peytrel and chamfron was popular amongst the Achaemenian kinsmen cavalry of Media and the Achaemenian cataphracts of Bactria. The single piece chamfron was rarely used amongst the later Parthians, let alone the single piece peytrel (Which was also popular amongst Massagetes) which seems to dread the buggy Pontic general (Ah... Inspired by a famous colour plate of the Achaemenian heavy cavalry).
Think about it. The Parthians formed their cataphracted cavalry to counter nomadic horse archers. Horses are naturally due to their size excellent targets for arrows, and with compound bows, they could inflict greater damage against the poor creatures. The full panoply was essential for this purpose, as well as the later addition of the compound bow for cataphracted cavalrymen (Even though all that armour must have been much encumbering for bow-drawing action, hopefully the compound bow did not require a long pull to be utilized) allowed them to directly deter the nomadic horse archers with counter-volleys of arrows. The neck area is vital for chargers, and a few arrows on a steed's neck is a sure fire way to kill off the animal. Heck even a nice hoplite thrust against a horse's neck is an effective way to dispose of the enemy horse. The Hellenic cataphracts flopped, because the hellenes never understood how to use it to the fullest potential. The Parthians stopped their advance once Antiochus III, undoubtely one of the most enigmatic rulers of the Seleucids, not because the hellenes introduced the kataphractoi, but mainly because Antiochus reinforced his authority in rebellious Persian districts. Campaigning is made harder when ethnic rebellions are quelled. Once Antiochus III became nothing more than a dead abode, it can be noticed that the Parthians had their most expansive period during Mithradates I, in which the Iranian recapture of Media, which basically decapitated Seleucid power in Êrânshahr. The hellenic cataphracts were rarely used, as well as they were poorly used, and only had one quite brief period of utilization during the Seleucid rule. Thus the side comment of the Seleucid cataphracts lacking the élan of the Iranian counterpart is correct, though I really don't notice much of a difference to be honest ;)
Though EB offers a more wide selection of troops than Rome Total Realism (Which basically only offered three different cataphract units, the standard cataphract, the general's rehash with weaker att. stats and the heavy camel) I miss the Hatrene clibanarius (For those who don't know, the Parthian Hatra became renowned for the garrison spearmen and for the distinctive style of the Hatrene heavy cavalry) and the heavy camels. I think both should be included in future versions of the EB. Heavy camels with a bonus against standard cavalry (The infamous camel odour), as well as a lengthened kontos from an advantegous height should be more than enough to counter standard cataphract units, while the hatrene clibanarius should have a bonus in dry weather/fatigue advantage (Well, perhaps not the desert... But seeing as the Mede cavalry has an advantage in snowy climes, I'd think that the Pahlavân should have a type of cavalry that can be used to campaign in dry, and hot climes as well)
As for the parthian infantry, I read somewhere in a Graeco-Latin source (Can't remember right now, but I'm sure steppe merc or someone else well versed in the Pahlava knows about this) that certain Parthian foot made use of a phalanx formation and directly opposed Seleucid hoplites, being a "match for them". I can't recall whether it related to Silver Shield pikemen (Personally I doubt it) or if it were mere levy pikemen formations, but I'd recommend an addition of a heavier spearman unit that sports the phalanx formation. Just a thought, though I understand the hardcoded limitations.
So to summarize my sentiments, I feel that the Parthian cataphracts seem a little uninspired, and needs an... Upgrade... in matter of panoply armour (Ah, yes... Those hemispherical eye-baskets would be a much welcomed introductions) as well as the armour stats (What? Carthaginian Sacred band cavalry have higher defence stats? Does not the Nisâean chargers of the Parthian plains have greater stamina, size and strength than the Numidian and Iberian horses of the Carthaginians, and thus a greater capacity to carry heavier armour?) as well as I've brought up a few suggestions for (hopefully) future cavalry additions.
I hope this invites to discussion. I always love a good discussion :ave:
EDIT: For those who are directly involved in the development of the Parthian faction, as well as the proto-Sassanid semi-autonomous units, if there ever would be such, I'm an ardent collector of Osprey books when it relates to the pre-Islamic Iranians. I have an abundance of colour plates scanned, and although I'm still considering the purchase of Dr. Farrokh's debut work on the Sassanid elite cavalry, I'm sure that I can be of help if there is a need for illustrations. Just send me a PM if there is any request.
Re: The Pahlavan Cataphract units and suggestions
Just like to say hi, and thanks for your concern, and as the Parthian Faction Coordinator, it's great to see another lover of the East.
First off we haven't finished the most important of the Parthian cataphracts, the Grivinpavar (probably butchered the spelling). This guy will have full horse bard, and the best armor for himself as well. (with basket horse eyes)
The Dehbed Asavara unit represents the low to mid end of the nobles, the Dehbed and their Bandaka (followers). Each cataphract had to supply his own armor and weapons, and we wanted to show a range of equpiment. That is the lowest end of the cataphracts. I have read in multiple places that, especially in the earlier days that it is unlikely that all cataphracts had full horse bard. It is very expensive to have a full horse bard, and many probably went without it.
The Pontic general is just a placeholder until the Grivinpavar model is made.
We will have a mercanary light camel unit, no heavy camel, not enough evidnce to devout a model to it.
We will have a heavier Iranian unit, but it isn't done yet. It is not as good as a heavy hoplite of course, but better than the currenent Iranian infantry in game.
And stats are always being tweaked.
Re: The Pahlavan Cataphract units and suggestions
Ah, That's what I call a quick reply... And already so many questions answered.
Indeed, the Iranians have their certain charm. There is the type who likes elite hoplites, others who enjoy the flexibility of the Roman post-marian legionnaires, also those who appreciate the Egyptian and Hyksos warchariots, but the exclusive club for horse-lovers is just about the right club for me.
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First off we haven't finished the most important of the Parthian cataphracts, the Grivinpavar (probably butchered the spelling). This guy will have full horse bard, and the best armor for himself as well. (with basket horse eyes)
The Iranian counterpart of "Clibanarius"? The Sassanids referred to their heaviest nobles generally as the Grîvâ-Panâ-Bârâ, which means neck-guard bearer, which is Sassanian Pahlavi, the newer revision of the parthian pahlavi, so you're about right (Grwînpâvâr or something like that, the Parthian Pahlavi was a little more guttural than the Neo-Persian revision) , although the usage of the term "Clibanarius" was younger than "kataphractoi". The usage of the term "klibanos" seems to appear first when Parthia captured Assyria and one of the corners of the great trade triangle (Palmyra-Hatra-Petra), Hatra. The term, jokingly referring to ovens, related to the Hatrene clibanarius, often armed with an Arab-styled bamboo-shafted lance, wearing quilted cothing over the armour, as well as the distinctive Parthian felt cap, being either coloured in the blue or pink dye. It was perhaps the usage of this heavy cavalry in the hot climes of the Near East that inspired to the usage of "clibanarius".
I'm glad that this one unit gets full barding as well as those übercool eye-baskets. Two thumbs up! The eye-basket thingies just makes the chargers look so much more ferocious. Surely, it's just probably cosmetic but those eye-basket thingies are practically essential for any cataphract enthusiast.
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The Dehbed Asavara unit represents the low to mid end of the nobles, the Dehbed and their Bandaka (followers). Each cataphract had to supply his own armor and weapons, and we wanted to show a range of equpiment. That is the lowest end of the cataphracts. I have read in multiple places that, especially in the earlier days that it is unlikely that all cataphracts had full horse bard. It is very expensive to have a full horse bard, and many probably went without it.
Exactly, and that is also why I pointed out that the Dehbeds formed the bulk of cataphract cavalry. Another thing why I like the OB so far (Although the economy for the Parthians is broken as hell, it gave me a heck of a challenge) is the high upkeep of troops and considering that cataphracts are expensive to recruit and to maintain, I find the realism level of EB much of a challenging relief, opposed to RTW/BI and RTR where I could almost spam cataphracts without worrying about outrageously high upkeep. Considering the humble beginning of the Parthian empire, it would not be fair to make their campaign simple. I cannot possibly imagine the mammoth task Mithradates I took upon himself before he recaptured Media. The Dehbed cavalry is excellent, until one can afford âzat or Pahlavân cavalry.
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The Pontic general is just a placeholder until the Grivinpavar model is made.
Oh, but me likey this replacement. It is true to the Achaemenian Kinsmen cavalry of Media, and to be frank, I'd find it ensaddening if I wouldn't be able to recruit this cavalry type as the Pahlava :'(
Oh well, it is not much of a loss. The Pahlavâ can still be a solid resurgent Achaemenian Empire without the javelineer Kinsmen cavalry.
Out of all placeholders you guys chose, it had to be a good cavalry type that would instantly become a hit amongst the Iranian players. *sobs*
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We will have a mercanary light camel unit, no heavy camel, not enough evidnce to devout a model to it.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo... *ten years later*
...ooooooooooooooooooooooooo...!
Seriously though, I do understand the lack of evidence, and that would be the later Roman countermeasures against the heavy camels, being the caltrop. It hampered the use of camelry. The usage of camelry in the Parthian empire was scarce, and almost exclusivelt used as baggage animals, yet the animals were under use for war as well. Though not as crazy as their predecessors, the Achaemenians, who even mounted entire howdahs on their backs, they did have special frontal panoplies for them.
Oh well, perhaps there is a future possibility for an addition... Maybe you're just bluffing in order to surprise the fans of the parthians (Ok, I admit, it's wishful thinking)
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We will have a heavier Iranian unit, but it isn't done yet. It is not as good as a heavy hoplite of course, but better than the currenent Iranian infantry in game.
Ah, I figured. I trust that it sports the phalanx formation and basically "behaves" like the Armenian Heavy Spearman unit of the Armenians in Vanilla (As in role).
Thanks, many of the mysteries have been cleared, though I must point out that the future inclusion of an even heavier cataphract unit has made upcoming updates for EB something of a treat. Now, I know that patience is a virtue, but... I kind of want that heavy noble unit right now... :rtwyes:
Re: The Pahlavan Cataphract units and suggestions
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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo... *ten years later*
...ooooooooooooooooooooooooo...!
ROFL
