Interactive History V: Notification

As some of You know, I have been planning another installment even before Manstein crushed the Russians. Almost equally long have I thought of having two teams duke it out, instead of me leading one side against the 'AI', which could perhaps be predictable at times, and also lending the astute historian a meassure of hindsight bonus.

So I have to find a proper situation, and interestingly the idea for IHV even before the two teams idea popped up was good. The naval situation between Germany and Britain in early 1918.

I have found another forum who are willing to do battle, and should be fairly good. Given how they might be more unorthodox and less historically inclined (though still TW fans) I have chosen to give them the stronger British side, while you will have to make do with the weaker German side.

I want to inform you that the German Imperial Navy has better armoured ships, smaller guns (but range is not an issue since all engagements were well within range), slower engines and better trained crews. For instance the British managed to cross the T of the German line several times at Jutland, yet they came off worse due to better German accuracy and armour, in fact the German battlecruisers took on the entire British Grand Fleet to guard the fleet's retreat, and they sank a British battlecruiser while losing no ship themselves.

So it is not as if the situation is hopeless, but numbers are not on Your side. Running battles are not for You. Deception, superior intelligence and tactics is a supreme must here. That is why I think You will do better with the German fleet.

This is only a notification, and I do not think the 'battle' will start soon (exams and ski-vacation).

I'm no naval tactics expert but I'll enjoy reading how some devilish sneeky manouvers will cripple and destroy Her Mayesty's Royal Navy.

Good luck to our forum.

Im also like a fish on a dry land,when it comes to naval warfare.But im ready to take em on.~D

Hmmmmm, this will surely be great fun and will also be a rather tough challenge for both parties. :2thumbsup:

Do not feel afraid of voicing your opinions when it comes to decide the battle.

I'm no naval buff in particular, but that is not major problem since the time was one of interesting combinations. The battleships still sailed in formal slow lines with cruisers (light ones, the armoured version was supposed to sail in the line but was too often blown to bits to be effective) forming the screen and destroyers acting as recon and escorts of both cruisers and BBs.

So we have the simplest of all setups (line of battle) with the freedom of destroyers and light cruisers.

Must point out that battlecruisers are meant to sail in the line, and can be described as light battleships in armour only. Light cruisers are quite weakly armed, normally only a handful of 5 inch guns, just barely enough to beat a destroyer, which rely on torpedoes and perhaps 2-3 4-5 inch guns.
German destroyers are called topedoboats (but are big enough to be destroyers) and are generally weaker and smaller, but faster than their British counterparts, though their weapons are comparable.
DD fights are vicious and bloody and often not over until one side is wiped out (heavily damaged ships would be ignored as long as more active targets sailed about).

A lot of contact will be done with lights, so info can be intercepted (as it happened at Jutland for the British). But the big ships have wireless installments and can even contact the homeland, but the DDs don't have that, and only some light cruisers have it.

As an ex wargamer one of my many interests was naval warfare and I did do a lot of WW1 stuff, so count me in. When I get time I will add to Kraxis's analysis - the difference between the 2 navies and their equipment is interesting and should be a good basis for an interactive history. The naval side of WW1, especially after Jutland was 1 of inertia as the Germans just relied on their U-Boats and the fleet just stayed in harbour. In fact this had a damaging effect on the fleet's morale and they were one of the hot beds of revolution at the end of the war.~:cheers:

I have no idea about maritime warfare - hey, I live in Bavaria. But maybe I can learn.

To prepare us for the upcoming challenge we could select informations. Maritime strategy and Tactics, the German and the GB fleet, ...

Does anybody have some good links?

Well I was thinking about buying a book about naval warfare during WWI, just to be prepared for this and of course because books are always nice. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Must point out that battlecruisers are meant to sail in the line, and can be described as light battleships in armour only.

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Well actually the concept of the battlecruiser was that it could outgun anything that it couldn't outrun and and outrun everything it couldn't outgun.
They were meant to hunt cruisers, not to engage enemy battleships.
But they were used in the role of a lightly armoured battleship, although this might not be the role they were meant for. Anyways I could guess that the German battlecruisers with their overall better armour were more suited for this kind of task than what the British battlecruisers were.

I would propose to we make some sort of a SWOT-analysis. If someone doesn't know it, it is a management tool used today when drawing out a strategic plan. It gives us a clear view of the situation and the things we have to keep in mind.

SWOT stands for Strenghts, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats. If we have our own strengts and weaknesses in black and white we'll always be aware of them and penning down the major threats and opportunities lets us focus on what we have to be carefull of and were the possibilities ly for a possible victory. It isn't a lot of work if we all pitch in and it is very handy.

A few thoughts:

The Imperial german Navy was designed for a single purpose - taking on the English fleet in the North Sea. This influenced the design of the ships - they were good gun platforms as they were broader in the beam and could take damage better due to better sub division internally. The thing they sacrificed was range, speed, seaworthyness and, to a certain extent, comfort for the crew. However this did not matter as they only expected to be at sea for a few days at a time.

In contrast the English fleet had to be suitable to face the Germans while carrying a blue water ocean role defending the Empire. Their ships were good sea boats, on the whole better armed (i.e. bigger guns) good crew quarters and faster. However, they were not quite so good gun platforms and did suffer from less internal sub division which made them more prone to damage. The main cause of loss of ships at Jutland was flash cordite fires in the turrets which flashed to the magazine causing a catastrophic explosion. The germans had nearly lost a ship to this early in the war and had made appropiate changes in the turrets, putting in flash proof doors. After Jutland, the english did the same.

So this means that in a classic fleet action, the English would not suffer the catastrophic sudden losses they suffered at Jutland. It would be down to slugging it out and the English numbers coupled with bigger guns (a bigger gun penertrates thicker armour and does more damage) would mean the complete defeat of the german navy.

So, as the IGN we have to be cleverer. Our 1 area of advantage is our U Boat fleet. If we could lure the english fleet on to a trap where we could attack the main battle line with submarines, we could inflict severe damage on it before our main battleline closed with them. The english screening forces - light cruisers and destroyers - are there to protect the main line, so we will have to work on that as well, but it is the beginings of a plan. The other problem will communications, so we should think about that - maybe a use for some Zepplins.

Finally, battlecruisers are a bit of an enigma. Their original use was chasing down crusiers etc and being a bit of a maneouvre force, but I am sure that both sides built so many because the other side was building them, resulting in both sides having argueably more than they needed. The only time they were used in their pure role was the battle of the falklands where they were a stunning sucess hunting down the german heavy cruisers and sinking them. Their final nemisis was the Bismark sinking HMS Hood in WW2. The Hood was the ultimate battlecruiser and was sunk by plunging fire pentrating the thinner deck armour. I have refought the battle as a wargame and the english won easily. If the Hood is not sunk at long range, she closes the range so the German shots are hitting the thicker belt armour. Then, in concert with the King George the Fifth battleship, she makes short work of the Bismark.

So Kraxis, hurry up with the sking and exams - I can't wait to get started!!~:cheers:

Did the Zeppelins and the aeroplanes play an important role? I think the German Navy had some? Did they recon or bombing too?

I have some doubts that the submarines will work. They never influenced a naval battle in WW2, did they? They could not save the Bismarck nor screen the landing at Norway.

The Zeps and planes are important only as pairs of eyes and communication. The bombs they carried were very small. However the communication side is very important - especially if we are planning something tricky.

As for the subs - they never pulled off a decisive victory on their own, but they often contributed. By WW2 naval battles tended to be over huge areas so it was difficult for a wolf pack to be in a critical place. During WW1, the emphasis was on sinking merchant ships, nobody tried what I am proposing. The English were always worried about subs and, even more, mines, so they always had loads of escorts, so we need a cunning plan to deal with those as well. The advantage is the confined waters of the North Sea and the Channel. Fleet submarine operations were proposed as strategic options between the wars - for example the English looked at such a force based in Hong Kong - but come WW2 technology had moved on, so the targets become the slow merchantmen. But during WW1 these threats could influence things greatly. During the Dardenalles campaign, it was naval losses to mines which resulted in the fleet being withdrawn from close support of the troops who had landed.

By the end of WW1, the IGN has to pull some rabbits out the hat to have a chance, so we have to be creative.~:cheers:

Mines:idea2: Could Zeps or submarines throw mines in front of the English harbors?

Philip K Masse's book 'Castles of Steel' is a good read if you want to have an idea of what you are meant to do.

As I read through the information above it appears that the only edge we have are our mines and maybe our subs if used correctly. So I would firstly suggest an extensive use of mines. Secondly we should be very carefull about our submarine force and use it in a way to isolate ships or to use in other cunning plans( as said above).

If I understand correctly then we (the Kaiserliche Marine) starts the operation. So we have innitiative. The Royal Navy will leave its den only if they see us leave. So we could place our subs in front of the harbors. Or do it like Priem, he penetrated Scapa Flow and sunk a ship with his sub. Maybe the subs can place mines too. Of cause timing is essential.

If we're going to defeat even portions of the Royal Navy, then we need to make sure to get local superiority by any means possible. I've yet to really figure out possible ways to do it, but the fact is that we can't win a slogging match.

The subs might not be that damaging in direct support of the fleet, but could be used in hampering the movement of the Royal Navy. The mining the harbors would be good, but I fear we might not be able to pull it off. But anyways we need to find a way to divide the Grand Fleet and beat it in sections. A possible role for submarines might be to make a screen to stop the Royal Navy from properly supporting an isolated section of the Grand Fleet. This is merely speculation at the moment, but we need to truly pull off something unexpected to win this clearly.

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Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

Philip K Masse's book 'Castles of Steel' is a good read if you want to have an idea of what you are meant to do.

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Bought it today, so will be prolly help a bit. :book:

Ok, I have to point out that you have no control over the U-boats. They are specifically targeting the shipping in the complete submarine warfare. And it being 1918 it is even more imperative that they sink transports. Btw, they are important in keeping the USN out of the game (yeah I know this is a major departure from history but I need some half-viable solution to keep them out).
You don't control the U-boats because you will only be the admiral in control of the Hochseeflotte (High Sea's Fleet), meaning all the battlewagons. The U-boats are under another 'department' and only the German equivalent of the Admiralty can shift them over. Besides the German U-boats are not trained for cooperation, but rather as seperate hunters. The British attempted to have fleetsubs, but they failed as much from construction as from concept.

Now you do have an advantage in the zeppeliners. You have in fact several of them under localized control. Meaning you can order them to patrol the North Sea, but you never know when a few British fighters might show up. Do not forget that the British have the two carriers, HMS Ark Royal and Furious with a few fighters onboard, though the latter can't retrieve them again andthe first only have two. But then again a few ofthe British heavier ships also carry fighters, or rather might carry them as they obstruct some of the main guns.

It is worth pointing out that the Imperial Navy has recieved the two very powerful battleships Bayern and Baden (flagship) as well as the suped up battlecruiser Hindenburg (essentially a Derfflinger, just better). While the British has recieved none since Jutland.

I do not agree that Hood and Prince of Wales would have won hands down.
I has long been argued that, had Hood only managed to finish it's turn, then it would have been safe. But that is quite false. It was turning too early, and would merely have presented an easier target for the plunging shells had she finished.
Why you ask? Well, if the shell did not hit the belt armour as she was turning, it would not have hit it as she had finished the turn. She would still have suffered plunging shells.
Further, Hood's firing was deplorable, sadly enough. While Pince of Wales had trouble enough just firing with all the babyillnesses she suffered from, though she had better accuracy.
Lastly, Hood was perhaps better armoured in the belt, but she was still underarmoured and the modern 15'' shells of Bismarck would have carved her up. Prince of Wales, a significantly better armoured ship had several penetrations of her armour.
And on the other side the wreck of Bismarck has show that her belt was more than capable of withstanding the 14'' shells of her two foes. Practically all the penetrations of her important sections has been determined to from Rodney, and even still her belt was only penetrated a few times from as short as 2000m. Her armour was not that thick really, but it was of superb quality and construction (something that Hood could hardly match).
Lastly, Bismarck lost her own guns from strike going through her deck, sneaking in between the belt armour and the turret armour, exploding in the turret basket (do not believe the paintings of her with her guns bent and all that), thus ruining the machinery (and personel) for ammo and traversion.

I would say that the extremely fast firing (about 20 seconds for reload compared to the about 35 seconds for both her enemies) and good fire control (superior optics and direction) and accuracy would have evened the score a significant deal. I do not say that Bismarck would have won, sinking both. But a similar result as the historical one with a more damaged Bismarck and Prince of Wales is not too far out. Of course the British could have been lucky too, but I assume that we are talking in a fair no-luck scenario, pure brute force.

I think it would be helpful with a list of our intelligence reports (the information the German fleet would have had at the time) on the British fleet composition and strength. Estimated speed, range and some measure on gun strength in the front, stern, and starboard/port sides for the different ship types, and estimated numbers of each type. Are there some British ships with lower range? Which ships have the best speed? Is it the same ship type that has the best speed and best range? And a similar report on our own ships.

If the British have very fast ships with long range, they can use manouvering and skirmishing tactics to keep our shorter range ships out of range while harassing us and wearing us down a lot before the main battle lines engage. Of course not as fancy manouvres as horse archers, but at least things like attacking one flank and then turning a few degrees to the side and going out of range again before the German ships get within range. If they get too much room to manouver, we are no match to them, so we must seek to get the crucial engagements in areas difficult to navigate - narrow straits, with many islands and shallows. But this is just speculations based on the assumption that all British ships outrange and outspeed all of ours. If we can find weak points by further analyzing the actual ships I think that could be of great importance. Are our ships well armed on all sides, so they can withstand surrounding manouvres, for example? Who would it benefit most if we/them could find a way to attack the other from two directions, assuming we achieved that by clever manouvering in narrow straits/archipelagos?

Strategically, it IMO seems like suicide to go anywhere outside the North Sea area. The British ships do better in the open sea, it's difficult to get good air recon far from land, it's far to our own ports with repairs etc, and the British have a superiority in numbers which they could assemble easier if we're closer to their home ports. Trying to make them come to the North Sea seems essential. But how get them out of their ports without some offensive activity, or how carry out offensive activity without risking to lose or temporarily put out of action too many ships and crews? Unless the ship capabilities summary I suggested can suggest some interesting weaknesses in the British fleet and interesting strengths in our own, finding a way of luring them into the North Sea seems to be the key.

Kraxis

Shame about the U Boats - historic, but still a shame!

My refight of the Hood and Bismark was with minatures and a set of rules that reflected things like plunging fire. We began with historic positions and a few more bits like the English firing at the Prinz Eugen instead of the Bismark at the begining of the action and the KGV firing at a reduced rate due to mechanical problems. I was the English and I shortened the range as quickly as possible and when it came to slugging it out, 2 on to 1 meant that Bismark was overwhelmed. The Hood took a lot of damage, but obviously the Bismark's ability to inflict damage was effected by the pasting it took from the 2 ships. Bismark was undoubtedly better than either ship, but just got overwhelmed. A critical hit early on would have given an historic result, but I got lucky.~:cheers:

Well the best way to lure the Royal Navy out would be to somehow fake that we're trying to break out of their blockade. How this would be done is another question.

We have a weaker navy and we may not use subs or mines. Is this the next level of interactives?

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Originally Posted by Franconicus

We have a weaker navy and we may not use subs or mines. Is this the next level of interactives?

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Hey - no pain - no gain!! - I like a challenge:help:

Ok, here goes.

Unless the ships are going to sail for many days at top speed the German ships will be ok as long as the action is in the North Sea. The range of the ships is not critical enough to fear running out of coal there.
The speed is about similar for both sides' BBs (22 knots when pushed for the slower BBs) and the British BCs have a slight advantage over the German BCs (28 to about 27 knots).
German intelligence was weak, but it did provide info that no more big ships were completed in time after Jutland, but as to which ships might be in dock and so forth is simply educated guesswork. Obviously your opponents know which ships they ready (I'm not going to look over the light cruisers and destroyers, there are simply too many, they will be presumed to be at full rate for both sides, though they might suffer technical problems as all others).

The range of the guns was a problem for the Germans, for instance at the battle of Dogger Bank Blücher suffered hits even before any German guns could respond (but that could also be because Blücher was the last ship in the line and thus the closest to the British). But this was about the only time the smaller German guns were inferior in range as after Dogger Bank and Jutland the 11 and 12 inch guns recieved upgrades to their elevation. And of course the 15 inch guns of Bayern and Baden were in fact longer ranged than the British of similar size (Royal Sovereigns and Queen Elizabeths).

The entire point of the operation that you are about to undertake (or not) is to sever the tie between France and her allies, and/or allow for a landing in England somewhere. This is the last chance.
There will be no need to go further than to the Channel or about the Orkneys, something the German ships are well capable of (remember Göben).

Further info will be availble in the official thread.
I will post the first chapter soon, but remember that it might not be updated very often for a time.