Interactive History V: The Duel of the Sea

19th of February 1918.

Standing atop the battleship Baden's bridge you look out on the fleet around you. This is new to you.
Coming from the old pre-Dreadnought battleships, you were sure that your position was at a dead-end after Jutland. But somehow the Admiralty felt that new blood was need at the top, and your progressive and at times demanding ideas brought you to the forefront.

Walking to the bridgewing you take in the harbour air. It is rank with inactivity!
The Admiralty has sent orders that the High Seas Fleet must do something soon, and something important. You are certain this has something to do with the upcoming events on land. While German troops are currently superior in numbers that will change soon enough with the Americans coming over in numbers. Something major is about to happen on the front, and apparently the fleet is supposed to do something to help.
The previous commanders were too timid to do something, or at least that is what the Admiralty thought, and now you are here.

You have tried to press for the reassignment of U-boats to the High Seas Fleet, if only temporary, but the Admiralty has denied that. The submarine warfare is more important than ever with the Americans coming in. And you have to reluctantly agree since the USN have not entered the British naval ports in support of their forces. Why that is you don't know, but the Admiralty thinks it is because of the U-boats and they will not back down.

Laying here in the port of Wilhelmshaven and in nearby Cuxhaven you have a total of 17 dreadnought battleships, 5 battlecruisers, 17 light cruisers and some 70 torpedoboats (you smile at this, the British call their torpedoboats ' torpedoboat destroyers' but experience has shown them to be evenly matched) of capable standards. In the north Baltic fighting in support of the Finnish revolution are the two old dreadnought battleships Rheinland and Westfalen plus a number of torpedoboats. Arrayed around in smaller ports nearby and in the two main ports you also have a host of pre-dreadnought battleships and outdated armoured and light cruisers acting as coastal defense, barracks, training and various other secondary duties. Perhaps it is time they resumed active duties?

You know that your forces are welltrained in maneuvers, well at least your heavy units, and it is believed they have an edge in accuracy over the British. You still remember how the entire line managed the 'gefechtkertwendung' at Jutland. It was a marvelous sight in face of the British crossing the 'T'. You hope that the 'lazy' time spent in port haven't eroded that advantage. But what you do know is that the bored and inactive crews have become somewhat less enthusiastic about the war, rumours prevail about revolutionary thoguhts and activities. That is not good, and you believe something needs to be done about it. Idle hands...

The intelligence on the British is to be fair rather limited. You only know for certain that no new battleships or battlecruisers have been built since Jutland and that the Vanguard blew up at Scapa Flow in July 1917, but they still retain a rather impressive advantage in numbers of 34 battleships and 8 battlecruisers, thus about double your force. So you know that you need to do something about that... Somehow. Reports says nothing about big ships in docks, but does mention that the HMAS Australia (battlecruiser) might be on convoy duty and others not impossible either, some might even be in the Mediterranean. A grand total of some 47 light cruisers are supposed to be ready in home waters or nearby, but it is assumed that almost 20 of them are outdated and many others are not assigned the Grand Fleet, perhaps only 20 can realiably be assumed to join the Grand Fleet. The armoured cruisers of which your own navy has almost removed totally the intelligence mentions to have a few active units ready at hand for the Grand Fleet, and the destroyers are assumed to have an advantage of at least 1.5:1 over your torpedoboats. Intelligence is certain that the British are currently refitting a very large cruiser to an aircraft carrier.

You know that British intelligence is good. The British forces have too often managed to see through German plans. Jutland in particular is too big for a coincident. But you do not know where it comes from, or how to deal with it.

Luckily for you, you have quite a few zeppeliners ready. They don't have much in terms of weapons, and the advent of AA guns on ships would also make it far too dangerous to attack ships. But their long range and relatively large crews means they are very good at spotting ships and identifying them. Also if weather is fairly bad, as it is in spring in the North Sea, their dropping gondolas can be used safely for both spotting and bombing (zeppeliner stays in cover while small gondola acts as eyes and bombadier). But they are very weak should the British attack with airplanes. You also know that the British do not have a similar force attached to the Grand Fleet.

Having stood in your own thoughts looking over Wilhelmshaven and the fleet you haven't appreciated the look of the ships themselves. The big ships look so clean and sleek, ready for battle. Small boats hustle about inside the harbour, tugs move a light cruiser around, you identify it as the Brummer, one of the successful convoyraiders of last autumn. It is likely it's action that caused the British to guard the scandinavian convoys so strongly.
You turn back inside the enclosed bridge and from there you alk to the antechamber to contemplate what to do.

The morale of the fleet is low, and bad behaviour is rife. You think over the options. You could begin a tough physical program, with a lot of intership competitions. Especially the engineers and ammohandlers would benefit from this. You are certain that this would help with the morale.
But you also think that maneuvers and gunnerypractice could help, but given the higher regard to gunners, bridgecrew and firedirectors it would hardly impact the others, who are noted to be the worst of the 'revolutionaries'. But this would likely help retain the sharp edge of the fleet.
Lastly you could send out a battlegroup to bombard Dover, which you know have only weak forces covering it. A few sunk destroyers and a bombarded town should highten the mood a good deal, but you fear that the battlegroup should get ambushed as the British has been good at. Which would turn the mood down as well as weakening you. Should it be the faster battlecruisers with a few light cruisers or some of the heavier battleships to deal with stronger opposition (also the battlecruisers are less affected by the low mood) but guarded by torpedoboats. Or maybe a strike at the scandinavian convoys?

British intelligence is good, you need to do something, but what?
You could close off the harbours with heavy guard, but that would likely lower the mood even more as the crews could not went steam in town. But you could also begin to train on relying less on wireless. Trouble is just that the Admiralty would still use it.

Also should the zeppeliners be sent out right away to scout out the British? You would like to but fear they mgiht give off the fact that you are planning something big.

Lastly should the pre-dreadnoughts, armoured cruisers and outdated light cruisers be formed into active forces again? They would be fairly badly crewed given their previous assignments and their battleworthyness is not too great, and lastly they might also give away your intentions.

So what will it be? Pick one of each.

1) A: Give the crews a good physical program with lots of competitions between the ships.
B: Train maneuvers and gunnery at sea. Will include both small scale and larger scale.
C: Do a raid on Dover or the scandianavian convoys with either a fast battlecruiser force or a slower stronger battleship group.

2) A: Close off the main harbours.
B: Scale down usage on wireless.

3) A: Scout out the North Sea with the zeppeliners.
B: Keep them at home for the time being.

4) A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.
B: Keep them at home.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet.
B: Let them stay, they are some of the oldest ships in the active fleet.

1) B: Train maneuvers and gunnery at sea. Will include both small scale and larger scale. We can't risk a fleet action yet I think and especially the maneuver training will be important in the coming fight.


2) B: Scale down usage on wireless. Not much to be said really, seems like the better choice to me.

3) B: Keep them at home for the time being. We're not launching any attacks at the moment, so keeping them at home might be wise. Although they might be able to provide us with some information, but I think it might be better to let them rest for our coming operation.

4) B: Keep them at home. They will only slow us down and will be no help against the Royal Navy. Also if we face battle their losses will be extremely high with a big loss of men too. Better to keep them at home.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet. We need every available gun that's on a fast and powerful ship, even if they might be slightly outdated. Anyways the Finns don't actually need any naval support and if they really do we could possible use a couple of pre-dreadnoughts in that role. ~;)

Btw Kraxis what is the possibility for us to pass on false intelligence to the Brits?

1) We''ve spent a long time in port. We may not be as skilled at sea as we once were. Perhpas it would be best to train at sea, although that might tip off the Reds. Then again, I doubt intership competitions are enough to overcome them either. Hmmm
GO for the at sea training. Being reminded of how good they are I think would help morale more and in a more fundamental way than simply distracting them.


2) I would suggest you change your encryption scheme. Barring that, scale back on wireless.

3)Send out the Sepplins, even if we don't leave for a few weeks. Find out about British patrols, and possibly put them on alert, whihc if it last long enough will wear down British Moral.

4) Leave the old ships at home. No one wants to be cannon fodder.

5)Recall the Batlic Fleet, unless they are significantly slower than the rest of the fleet.


Oh and Kraxis:
WE LOVE YOU!!!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Just want to point out that every post counts (as long as it isn't another from the same person). So do not feel that you shouldn't post. In case of ties, it will be the best argument and if I can't find one that is good enough I will just pick as per seniority.

So you must keep arguments good (keeping in line with the idea that you are all different personalities of our admiral arguing with the main personality).

1)C, send out a quick battlecruiser force to smash a Scandinavian convoy or two. This is less likely to get you in trouble than an attack on Dover and will both hone their skills and greatly improve morale, as long as things don't turn sour anyway...

2)B, scale back wireless or change encryption schemes. It won't stop the sailors from screwing around while on shore leave, but will help to break the monotony, perhaps improving morale or at least their mental edge, and be beneficial to future operations.

3)A or B, if the final decision is to attack a Sandinavian convoy or Dover definately send out the zeppelins, you will already have shown that you are up to something so there is no great risk in sending out the zeppelins. Otherwise keep them at home for now.

4)Keep the old ships at home for now, but don't completely resign them to the mothballs, they could be handy later on as a diversionary force.

5) Definately recall the Baltic fleet, they are good enough to help alleviate the English navy's sheer weight of numbers.

1 B) Whilst I'm tempted by the option of a quick win convoy raid, as a new commander I'd rather gain more familiarity with the fleet first and be sure that skills haven't gone rusty since Jutland. And training keeps the whole fleet busy, whereas the raid options will only occupy part of it, leaving the rest still prey to thoughts of revolution.

2 B) Same arguments as the other posts. But, if we do opt for a raid on Dover or the convoys, then try and throw the Brits off the scent by making the limited wireless traffic and direction of steaming the target we haven't chosen. The Captains then turn to the real target, which only they know in advance.

3 B) No major scouting - keep them in reserve for the future. (I take it from the description that training and morale aren't a problem for them.)

4 Agree with Uesugi Kenshin - Keep the old ships at home for now, but don't completely resign them to the mothballs, they could be handy later on as a diversionary force.

5) A. Every ship that can make a serious contribution is needed.

Raids are a terrible idea. The Brits can read our wireless transmissions, otherwish Jutland wouldn't have happened. ANy raid would be doomed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kraxis

1) A: Give the crews a good physical program with lots of competitions between the ships.
B: Train maneuvers and gunnery at sea. Will include both small scale and larger scale.
C: Do a raid on Dover or the scandianavian convoys with either a fast battlecruiser force or a slower stronger battleship group.

2) A: Close off the main harbours.
B: Scale down usage on wireless.

3) A: Scout out the North Sea with the zeppeliners.
B: Keep them at home for the time being.

4) A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.
B: Keep them at home.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet.
B: Let them stay, they are some of the oldest ships in the active fleet.

---

1: A is the way to go. B won't solve any problem and with few true assets. C is way too early and the British could easily intercept us with their intelligence all over us.

2: There is no real question except to choose B. I second the notion of changing the passwords, however, at least internally if the High Command refuses. It'll keep the code guys active, too, and delay the British intelligence.

3: Hard choice...but I'd go for B and keep them fresh and safe for now at home. Whatever scouting benefits, however useful, might cause us some unnecessary -- and potentially weakening -- loss of zeppelins, whether from real damage or exhaustion.

4: B, Keep them at home, but not dismantle them. We cannot waste our resources on them right now with the chance of raising an alarm all too early for no benefits, but we might need them later in desperate cases or tactical maneuver.

5: A, return and refit the Rheinland and Westfalen for full service. Every big gun in big ships hold benefits in our outnumbered, defensive position. Do the Finns really need help?

I believe we should work towards a raid on Dover, but not now as we should do some training at sea. We should establish a pattern of training at sea to a certain timetable so we can turn a training exercise into the raid. So A for 1.
Dover is important as the base against the U Boats, so an attack on there is important. Also the grand Fleet is based in Scarpa Flow in scotland, so it has a distance to cover to intercept our forces who raid Dover.
2 - scale down wireless - so we can use it to decieve in the future.
3 - Zepplins to the North sea - but only the northern area. Also they should practice cooperation with our sea forces, especially the light cruisers.
4- Refit the secondary forces - we have use for them and training/ refitting will keep the crews active. These forces will be used as deception forces and for specialised attacks on bases - I have a cunning plan - the predrednaughts would be excellent block ships to be used like the British raid on Zebrugge, so we should get them fit for action with that in mind.
5- Recall the Rheinland and Westfalen - we need all we can get.

Our focus should be on the Channel with a view to disrupt sea movements between England and France prior to the big offensive. however we should fient North before we strike south.

1) A: Give the crews a good physical program with lots of competitions between the ships.

We have to prepare the operation. So no raid now.

2) B: Scale down usage on wireless.
Will not use a lot. But anyway.
3) B: Keep them at home for the time being.
Let them do excersice with our light ships. We cannot afford to loose them before the battle starts.

4) A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.
This will give more options. We can decide later if we use them.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet.

This will give more options. We can decide later if we use them.

I agree with Kurt: We must have a plan before we start Kraxis' day tp day planing.

I am certainly no expert to naval warfare. But here are some thoughts:

What is the goal of the operation? I see two options. 1st, we could cut off the connection between England and France. This would help the army, raise our prestige, but would not change much on the long run. 2nd, defeat the Royal Navy. This will be hard, but if we make it the connection to France would be our prize too. Of cause the Royal Navy would be able to replace their home fleet sooner or later, but we could gain more time.

We have to split the Home Fleet or lure it away from the area of operation. If we decide that the Navy is the target, then we can only lure parts of it.

How can we split the Roval Navy? Kraxis offers us the Brummer, so we could use this convoy raider. We could also use our old and slow ships to form a second fleet as lure. Make the 2nd fleet leave the harbor for training. Let the first fleet leave a couple of days later. The spies will tell it London. Then let the 2nd fleet go to the channel and pretend that they are going to attack Dover. The Royal Fleet will come from dover. Then the 2nd fleet can retreat and the 1st fleet can attack - whatever?

Alright, the plan is not finished.:sweatdrop: But let's discuss our strategy!

KING KURT'S CUNNING PLAN

We must face facts - we will not defeat the grand fleet in an open clash - we are outnumbered 2 to 1. The English never split their fleet during operations. The only inderpendant force was occasionally the battlecruisers and may be the squadron based on the QE class with them. Jellico and Beaty know they can loose the war in an afternoon. So the basis of a plan must be to disrupt cross channel communications in preparation of the big offensive due in the Spring. So we should raid and block using the old battleships ports between say Harwich and Dover. Our fleet can overwhelm the local forces - especially if we steal a march by surprising them and the grand fleet will be pulled down into the restricted waters off the Thames esturary and the Dover straights where our light forces can press home torpedo attacks and we might get lucky with mines etc. imagine the PR effect of getting an old battleship 1/2 way up the Thames and scuttling it in the main channel.

So, how do we do it?
1) We train, train, train.
2) We feint all our attention on the north of the north sea - maybe a couple of Scandanavian convoy raids with light forces etc
3) We train on the same days of the week, returning to port at dusk. We launch our major raid by sailing for England as dusk sets - thus getting a jump start.
4) We raid 3 or 4 ports at once - light forces and old ships close in, then the battlecruisers, then the main fleet as a shield.
5) The Zeps and some light forces operate in the North Sea to give us good warning on the Grand Fleet's movements.
How is that for a start?

Oh forgot to mention that your esteemed opponents are not Beatty. He had a run-in with the Admiralty and Jellicoe over Jutland and that promted him to resign. The new admiral is untested and has a history of a Admiralty lapdog, but perhaps this major advance has shaken him up. He was at Jutland and he seems to have taken a fancy to the battle, trying to find faults and the like.

So far the results are:

1) A: 3
B: 3
C: 1

2) B!!!!

3) A: 2
B: 4

4) A: 2
B: 5

5) A!!!!

So, so far only 1 is really possible for change.

I'm not that sure raiding ports with our old ships is a good idea. Speed is essential for a successful raid and that is what these older ships do not have. They might be able to do the raid, but I'm not sure that they would actually make it back to the port.

Especially with the fact that the British battlecruisers are stationed in Rosyth, easily within range to intercept us on the way back. Add that with the fact that the Brits have an uncanny ability to predict our operations, I can assume that we will just be sending those old ships and their crews to their deaths. That's not a good way to build up morale.

On the other hand sending one battlecruiser to raid convoys could easily tie up about two or three times of enemy battlecruisers. There's just the problem that the British battlecruisers have better speed, which makes using our battlecruisers as convoy raiders risky. :wall:

The old ships aren't coming back! - the aim is to send them with skeleton crews to use their big guns to support the attack but then they will be scuttled in pinch points in the chanels serving the port to block access. The British actually did this to Zeebruge during WW1 and more famously with HMS Camperdown at St Nazarre during WW2 when it was used to block the only dry dock capable of taking the Turpitz on the Atlantic coast. The crews will be taken off by destroyer or light cruiser. Imagine the propaganda effect of blocking the Thames at Greenwich - a gamble but worth a shot.:2thumbsup:

1: A - The superior British intelligence makes any sort of Raid by part of the fleet extremly risky. We need to be dividing the British Fleet, not our own. As for training at sea..... Its war out there. Outnumbered as we are we simply cannot risk one of our big ships running into a mine or submarine, lets keep them safely in harbour until we need them. So B, lets distract the men and give them something to aim for in the short term.

I think everything else is pretty much decided so I'll be lazy and just give letters.

2: B

3: B

4: B

5: A

Ehm... 1 A is staying in port, 1 B is going onto the Heligoland Bight for training, well within the minefields.

The minefields are the only places where there is continual combat. It mgiht not be with guns, but at day the British lay mines and at night your clear them while they hunt for the minesweepers. There is not much you can do about it per se, but chances might appear.

Whoops, careless of me, I'll change the post.

Thanks for pointing that out.... :embarassed:

Ok here are my answers:

1.Option A) Get the men out from their arses.

2.Option B) We wiil never get the spyes out.of our harbors.

3.Option B) Keep them at home for the time being.

4.Option A): Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.More ships more tactical choises.

5.Option B)Let them stay, they are some of the oldest ships in the active fleet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King Kurt

The old ships aren't coming back! - the aim is to send them with skeleton crews to use their big guns to support the attack but then they will be scuttled in pinch points in the chanels serving the port to block access. The British actually did this to Zeebruge during WW1 and more famously with HMS Camperdown at St Nazarre during WW2 when it was used to block the only dry dock capable of taking the Turpitz on the Atlantic coast. The crews will be taken off by destroyer or light cruiser. Imagine the propaganda effect of blocking the Thames at Greenwich - a gamble but worth a shot.:2thumbsup:

---

That's not a bad idea. Ready for this.


About choosing A, I don't know. While it would take the crews minds off revolutionary thoughts, I really don't see why it should remain so, especially once they are told that they are going out to sea. And I would not be surprised if any would be revolutionary leader is clever enough to see right through the attempt at distraction, and they would almost certainly make their thoughts known to the rest of the sailors deafting the surpose of the exercises.

Very interesting. I think I agree with the choices already mentioned, but King Kurts cunning plan seems interesting. However we need to time the Thames blocking at a time when, if possible, much of the British fleet is trapped inside. If there are only smaller forces left outside we can try to engage them, or if that is impossible, try to raid the coasts and destroy docks and harbor facilities. But if our choice of time for the operation is ill chosen we have only lost a useful ship - if we're really unlucky the escorts too, and further helped strengthening the British odds. Plus we must analyze the terrain carefully on our maps. Perhaps it's easier for the British to just dig a channel beside instead of trying to move the scuttled ship if we pick a part of the river with too soft ground on the sides. While a channel takes time to fix in any case, it's difficult to predict what labor force the British might muster for such a project in war time. My knowledge about the Thames geography is limited, has anyone got information on whether there are any appropriate spots that Operation King Kurt can target with the desired effect?

For the questions I vote:
1 - A or B (does that count as A 0.5 and B 0.5? ~:)). I refrain from voting in a more detailed way, both options A and B seem good and it's difficult to choose. C seems bad, we need all ships for operation King Kurt :2thumbsup:
2 - B, with same motivation as Kagemusha suggested
3 - own option. Difficult choice, scouting is always valuable, but it's possible we reveal our plans in advance. Maybe scouting, but scouting out another area than the one we plan for our operation? Could be a diversion, and be a very positive form of scouting at the same time - if we know how many ships AREN'T in the area we scout, we also know how many, at the most, might be in the place we attack. I suggest with the Zeps scouting a rather undefended area far from where we are going to attack, but if I have to choice among the existing choices it's stay at home at the moment.

4 - A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more seems a good idea, as we lack numbers.

5 - I refrain from voting: Difficult choice. We need numbers desperately, but the old ships might not be that useful. Would it hurt morale much if they got sunk? Would it boost morale to see the old beasts still doing fine in battle? I trust the other participants to make the right decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kraxis

So what will it be? Pick one of each.

1) A: Give the crews a good physical program with lots of competitions between the ships.
B: Train maneuvers and gunnery at sea. Will include both small scale and larger scale.
C: Do a raid on Dover or the scandianavian convoys with either a fast battlecruiser force or a slower stronger battleship group.

2) A: Close off the main harbours.
B: Scale down usage on wireless.

3) A: Scout out the North Sea with the zeppeliners.
B: Keep them at home for the time being.

4) A: Refit the secondary forces for battle once more.
B: Keep them at home.

5) A: Return the Rheinland and Westfalen to the High Seas Fleet.
B: Let them stay, they are some of the oldest ships in the active fleet.

---

1( A

Needed because of the Loyalty problems.




2( A

Forified cost would be a good thing



3( A

more recon to see how many of the british ships are in service.



4( A

To decrease the enemies advantage in numbers.


5( B

See above.

Since all but one of the choices are already decided, in ways that I more or less agree with, I'll comment on the remaining choice. For choice 1, my selection is... B!

We'll soon have some large operations to conduct, and we need to be in tip-top shape for them. We won't get there by playing a bunch of games. While A is not a terrible choice, therefore, it's basically a waste of time. There may be a few disentious ideas out there, but once we get into combat, the men will pull together for their collective survival. I'd say the risk of something as drastic as, say, mutiny, is minimal, as is the risk of running into a mine or a British ship while training at sea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King Kurt

The old ships aren't coming back! - the aim is to send them with skeleton crews to use their big guns to support the attack but then they will be scuttled in pinch points in the chanels serving the port to block access. The British actually did this to Zeebruge during WW1 and more famously with HMS Camperdown at St Nazarre during WW2 when it was used to block the only dry dock capable of taking the Turpitz on the Atlantic coast. The crews will be taken off by destroyer or light cruiser. Imagine the propaganda effect of blocking the Thames at Greenwich - a gamble but worth a shot.:2thumbsup:

---

How about combining this attack with a feint maneuver by the Dreadnoughts and most of the Hochseeflotte?

We could lure their larger capital ships away from the Thames Estuary by sailing towards north in force and seem to offer a battle over there. We should head north and not really keep it too secret, so that they will actually head to intercept us over there. Although a proper recon by the Zeppelins is a must during this operation, to ensure that we don't accidentally run into the Home Fleet. Also the men shouldn't be told the truth about the operation, before we've sailed from the port, to ensure maximum secrecy about the true role of the operation.

At the same time while most of the British capital ships are away pursuing the battleships, our strike force that is protected by our battlecruisers is heading to the Thames Estuary. The battlecruisers should be sufficient in handling most of the lighter forces situated around the area. This requires complete surprise and the plan should be kept a secret at all costs though, because total surprise is our best advantage in this plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King Kurt

Imagine the propaganda effect of blocking the Thames at Greenwich - a gamble but worth a shot.:2thumbsup:

---

Agree with that, and as a further plus point the humiliation could provoke a shamed Admiralty and their inexperienced admiral into rash responses that we might exploit.

But on the practical side of achieving it:
a) Do we know how much else we would be up against besides the Royal Navy - are there shore batteries, mines, aircraft & airships to worry about?
b) Can we get a battleship far enough up the Thames to reach a suitable bottleneck without a river pilot? I guess we have good charts of open water, but what's our detailed knowledge of the tidal river? Can we navigate the river at night, can the ship survive more than a few miles if we try it during daylight? Even if it is feasible I suspect we'll be tied to a few days when the tides and light are suitable, so timing will be crucial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flavius Clemens

But on the practical side of achieving it:
a) Do we know how much else we would be up against besides the Royal Navy - are there shore batteries, mines, aircraft & airships to worry about?
b) Can we get a battleship far enough up the Thames to reach a suitable bottleneck without a river pilot? I guess we have good charts of open water, but what's our detailed knowledge of the tidal river? Can we navigate the river at night, can the ship survive more than a few miles if we try it during daylight? Even if it is feasible I suspect we'll be tied to a few days when the tides and light are suitable, so timing will be crucial.

---

Well I'm not sure about coastal batteries, but I don't think that we'll have to worry about mines in the Thames Estuary. Once we get out of the Bight, mines should be quite rare I think. I also don't think that aircraft or airships are really capable of proving to be a serious threat to our ships.

About B, I dunno really. Perhaps a english fella could help us with info about the Thames River and the Thames Estuary.

Glad to see my cunning plan is gaining favour.

The thames operation is probably more PR than useful. However blockading Dover, Calais, Bolougne, Folkstone for example would disrupt the flow of material in support of the Spring offensive.
One point to pick up - there was no big ships based down south, so we will not be trapping the Grand fleet in the Thames! In fact, one of the strengths of the operation is that the English fleet is based in Scarpa Flow at the northern tip of Scotland so they would have to get steam up then sail the length of the North Sea to intercept any attack on the Channel/ Dover Straights area. That is why the deception part of the plan is so important.~:cheers:

Quote:

---

About B, I dunno really. Perhaps a english fella could help us with info about the Thames River and the Thames Estuary

---

Thames estuary looks like a big expanse of water on a map, but is in fact mostly shallow with shifting sandbanks. There are IIRC five main channels out and a deep draught vessel would be severely restricted in her ability to manouvre. It is not trivial even today even in a small boat. A typical depth of water over the banks would be only a few metres, more or less depending on the tide.

The tidal streams can also be complex.

However the port of London is (was) about the largest in the world and good charts and tidal data for the estuary would have been readily available up until 1914. Very probably a siginficant number of the German merchant marine would be familiar with the apporaches to London in peacetime. Of course channels do silt up or shift.

Guys, I know too little for what you propose, at least for the Thames, where I know the Dutch had plenty trouble when they did their 'little' raid and stole the flagship in the second English-Dutch War. Many of their ships ran aground and it took far too long compared to what we should use. Of course they had sailships but we have no knowledge of the drifting sand. I think it is impossible currently.

About heavy ships in the Channel. Do not think that there might not be some, intelligence has indicated that a number of ships are not at their usual stations in Scapa Flow or Rosyth. They think three things might be the case, either they are in the Med., sitting in a Channel port or protecting the minefields in the Bight, or of course a combination.

Please do not base your choices on Operation King Kurt, but be advised that I am keeping it in mind. We might get a chance to do it later.

It is now:

1)
A:6
B:4
C:1

2)
B! But with a minority of one for A.

3)
A:3
B:6

4)
A:5
B:6

5)
A so far but a minority of two wants the two dreadnoughts to stay with the Finns (could that have an impact on your voting Kage?~;p)

The results will soon be played out of these choices, but the others aren't as numerous and fast as you (they have just moved forum so some might not have been able to post).

Kraxis,
how do you manage to motivate so many people to participate in your Interactive. Amazing! Congrat!!

Please do not base your choices on Operation King Kurt, but be advised that I am keeping it in mind. We might get a chance to do it later.
I think we have to have a strategy if we want to win. Just choosing the alternatives wont get us very far. The boundaries are too tough. So could you give us all likitations, so we can discuss a plan?

Can I echo Franconicus - I do enjoy these interactive histories - shame that work gets in the way!!

Can I ask a question to the Interactive masters - how do you work out what happens next? Do you work out a consequence for each option? Do you have a storyline as a background? Do you just react to the combined thoughts of the participants? It struck me that it would be great to relate this to a game of some sort - not necessaryily a PC game - to give some more unknowns.

Keep up the good work boys - and Kraxis - my apologies about the interest in the Thames, I saw it as a sideshow or a bit of colour alongside raids on the channel ports, but people just seem to have become swept along with it - who knows, they might even have the German Fleet sailing in line past Big Ben!!~:cheers: