Julii Army composition/tactics

Just wondering what people's opinions of my basic army composition are (for use in campaigns - I've yet to venture into multiplayer), and if anyone has some suggestions to shake things up a little.

I'm currently playing Julii tend to use a fairly balanced army unless I'm tailoring it for a specific task (such as sieges). Usually try to have something along the lines of:

4 Roman Cavalry (3 + the general if I have a family member in the army)
8 Legionary cohorts (with a few Praetorian or Urban cohort if I can afford them)
4 Archers
4 Onagers

for open field battles:

front line of 6 Legionaries, with 2 held in reserve behind the flanks, followed by onagers, then the archers, with the cavalry either split on both wings, or all on one flank if I can "anchor" the other on a river or other blocking terrain.

for Sieges (attacking):

Onagers blast away the gates/gatehouse, then the archers move up to fire over the walls while the infantry storm the gates. Hopefully once the gates are taken a fair number of the enemy are running back to the town square and can be ridden down by my cavalry in the streets, before I move up the archers to soften up the survivors for the infantry.

sieges defensive:

Archers on the walls to try and burn any rams/towers before they get to me, while infantry guard anywhere where a siege tower / ladder is heading - cavalry head out of the side gate to pick off stragglers and come up behind the enemy in the streets if they manage to get inside the walls.

Sallys:

Much like open field battles, except I try to anchor one end of the line against my walls and work my way along. I also keep the archers on the walls for the greater range this gives them.

(Just a few comments, apologies I'm a little tired to match your very nicely laid out, formal post).

Well I personally hardly ever build catapult ranges, standard archers are fine for me and I dont use 'siege' type equipment like ongoers in field battles. Also I'm more than happy to wait a turn to siege with towers and rams, so ongoers not usually in my armies, also if you accidently forget to hault their fire and your in hand to hand with enemy, they'll blast away your own troops.

Sallies, if I can sense a siege coming (IE. on a border town) then some horse archers to lure enemy to the gates where my archers can slaughter them tends to do the trick.

I dont usually have a recipe for my armies, a couple of units of archers and cavalry and horse archers then a mix of maybe a unit of militia (fodder) then some light and heavy infantry.

Depends of course of stage in game and faction, I'm less inclined for cavalry if I'm with Greece for instance, and armies will of course be more weak if I'm in early stages.

No triarii spearmen for pesky chariots, elephants, cav? I don't like throwing cav vs cav. Its too much of a close thing especially against armored cataphracts.

Since it seems to be a post-reform army he won´t be able to build Triarii anymore, but I agree, some spears to keep the horse guys at bay would be advisable. Though, as the Julii, taking on Gauls and Germans, they´re less needed than when going against the more advanced civilisations like Carthage, Egypt or the eastern factions.

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Originally Posted by orangat

No triarii spearmen for pesky chariots, elephants, cav? I don't like throwing cav vs cav. Its too much of a close thing especially against armored cataphracts.

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As Ciaran saysin his post, I've been mainly against barbarians this campaign (my first). I've yet to see the AI use cavalry very effectively (perhaps once I play an eastern campaign this'll be different) - it just seems to use 1 or 2 units on the flanks, where my cavalry or reserve infantry can run round and trap them in melee while they're engaged with my front line.

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Originally Posted by Sovereign

I dont usually have a recipe for my armies, a couple of units of archers and cavalry and horse archers then a mix of maybe a unit of militia (fodder) then some light and heavy infantry.

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This is how my armies start out (I've been recruiting mostly in my starting cities and the gallic cities south of the alps, since that's where my highest level troop buildings are). once they've been on the frontier for a few years they tend to stray more and more from this pattern, with whatever mercenaries I can lay my hands on.

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Originally Posted by Sovereign

ongoers not usually in my armies, also if you accidently forget to hault their fire and your in hand to hand with enemy, they'll blast away your own troops.

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I learned this the hard way, when firing over the heads on my troops on an upward slope, the first shot killed my general :wall: (fortunately only a captain), so I've learned to be careful about it.

I wanted to ask this same question. I think I am more like you, or should I say was like you. Is this your first time playing? It is for me. If so, you, like I was, might be overthinking things too much. Take that as a grain of salt, I just started playing myself so take the advice for what its worth.

An example is my recent experiences with Germania. I'll give you some advice that [B]is[B] worth something. Germania is hilly. Getting caught marching through Germania with siege weapons and trying to maneuver them while spear warband are charging you...:no:

Oh, it sounded smart to line up some ballista and just pummel the warbands...:no: ...rain and hills...:no:

I also tried various combination forces against Gaul, like you multiple companies(units) of horse(cavalry), range weapons(velites/archers[when I could make them])...yada yada yada...

Then I decided to K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) and now with a standard army/force of 609 I've just beaten one force of 1900+ and then another one of 1K (mainly Gallic warband).

Here it is:

1 General & Bodyguard = 21

5 companies of Hastati = 400

2 horse (Equites) =108

1 company of velites = 80

This army or part of it has so far: took the rebel village Segesta, taken the Gallic territories of Patavium and Mediolanium, conquered Massilia and Norbo (whatever) and fought off the routine attacks by Gallic Captains including the @3K previously mentioned. They'll soon turn they're attention to Northern Gaul.

So far they have 3 experience and 2 weapon upgrades. By the time I'm able to recruit Urban Cohorts these guys will [B]be[B] Urban Cohorts.

However, all that glitters is not gold. I've recently found that I'm facing a bit of a problem using this tactic.

Money.

Too much of it. I'm trying to keep a corruption free family and having such a small military with 6 of 7 territories being Port cities...:wall:

Well, that's my 2 cents...like another post said your own range weapons can kill you, when you're fielding large forces maintaining order is...:wall: its not fun to be watching the destruction of an enemy only to realize that your own weapons are inflicting most of your casualties.

A balanced composition of 8/4/4/4 is nice compromise if I don't know what I'm getting in to. Its not the best in all situations but at least you won't get steamrolled for lack of skirmishes or whatever.

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Originally Posted by son_pacho

This army or part of it has so far: took the rebel village Segesta, taken the Gallic territories of Patavium and Mediolanium, conquered Massilia and Norbo (whatever) and fought off the routine attacks by Gallic Captains including the @3K previously mentioned. They'll soon turn they're attention to Northern Gaul.

So far they have 3 experience and 2 weapon upgrades. By the time I'm able to recruit Urban Cohorts these guys will [B]be[B] Urban Cohorts.

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> I forgot to mention that most of the casualties have come from the Hastati. In all of the fighting so far I've only lost one (1) Velite that means 1 individual Velite (he had a case of the runs)...oh yeah one of my Cavalry units got pretty chewed up in a 'lil tussle'...but for the most part the Hastati have been doing most of the fighting/dying...

but it's only been against Gauls...no Germans/etc...against Germania I'm thinking of trying...probably Triarii...or I'll be back on hear searching for: 'fighting germania'

For my Julii campaign, I tried to put the emphasis on the infantry, and with archers, skirmishers and cavalry playing an important supporting role.

Early on my army typically consisted of:
1 General
2-4 Cavalry Units - Usually 2 Equites, then up to 2 mercenaries
1-2 Skirmishers
1-2 Archers (For the first 30 years or so I often had just 1 archer unit per army that went on campaigns for several battles before being reinforced)
5-6 Medium Infantry (Hastati/barbarian mercenaries/Spanish Mercenaries)
2-4 Heavy Infantry (Principes, occasionally some Triarii)
1-2 Artillery pieces when available (Onagers/Ballistae)

I try to avoid spamming with archers and cavalry as it can make many battles too easy. I prefer to see the infantry fight it out.

When the reforms come around and I have greater access to the top level barracks and training facilities, my army is more along these lines:

1 General
2-3 Cavalry Units (Roman Cavalry, perhaps some mercs or 1 Legionary Cavalry)
2-3 Archers (Only 3 on rare occasions such as siege defense)
2-4 Medium Infantry (Auxilia, Barb mercs or whatever)
6-8 Legionaries (mainly early legionaries depending on availability of late cohorts)
1-2 Artillery pieces (Onagers and Scorpion or Repeating Ballista)

I may bring along a unit of Praetorians or Urban Cohorts too.

I have reduced the numbers of cavalry and archers in a unit which reduces those units effectiveness further. I also don't retrain experienced troops (those above 3 chevrons) so I try not to throw away soldiers needlessly. But this kind of strong legionary army is enough to trash most foes effortlessly, although phalanxes can take their tolls on the weaker frontline troops.

I deploy my infantry in 2 lines: weaker ones at the front, stronger ones behind. Archers go in front of the frontline, velites further ahead. The cavalry are on the wings, behind the second line. The general is in the centre, behind the second line --

......SKM.................SKM............
........ARCHERS....ARCHERS...........
...............................................
....MI.....MI....MI....MI.....MI....MI
........HI.....HI.....HI....HI.....HI......
CA..................GEN..................CA

MI=Medium Infantry
HI=Heavy Infantry (Or more experienced medium infantry troops)
CA=Cavalry
GEN=General
SKM=Skirmishers
BA=Ballistae/Scorpions etc
ONA=Onager

With Artillery:
......SKM.................SKM............
........ARCHERS....ARCHERS...........
...............................................
....MI.....MI....MI....MI..BA.MI....MI
........HI.....HI.....HI....HI......HI......
CA..........ONA...GEN..................CA

Ballistae on the frontline are only worth it if the AI are on the defensive, ie you attack them. This makes the AI loathe to come forward, making it easier for the artillery to be used.

All pilum equiped infantry are on fire at will, although at times I remove the order if I want to save the missiles for later (eg: when flanking another unit and wanting to fire them into the rear of the enemy). I let the enemy come to me generally, and when the frontlines clash, the cavalry will flank the enemy when possible and try and hit the enemy in the rear. Sometimes it's too risky to send the cavalry out, so it may stay back to guard the flanks. The archers should be forced to retreat behind the second rank of infantry before the enemy gets too close. Turn off skirmish mode though or they'll just run stupidly into the enemy. The second rank of infantry charges through any gaps between the frontline troops, although where possible, those on the extreme sides will flank the enemy as they engage my frontline troops. The general typically stays back until a clear opportunity arises to flank the enemy or to send them fleeing.

It's not always the ideal formation, but it's nice to have the occasional weakness to fight against.

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Originally Posted by icanus

Just wondering what people's opinions of my basic army composition are (for use in campaigns - I've yet to venture into multiplayer), and if anyone has some suggestions to shake things up a little.

I'm currently playing Julii tend to use a fairly balanced army unless I'm tailoring it for a specific task (such as sieges). Usually try to have something along the lines of:

4 Roman Cavalry (3 + the general if I have a family member in the army)
8 Legionary cohorts (with a few Praetorian or Urban cohort if I can afford them)
4 Archers
4 Onagers

for open field battles:

front line of 6 Legionaries, with 2 held in reserve behind the flanks, followed by onagers, then the archers, with the cavalry either split on both wings, or all on one flank if I can "anchor" the other on a river or other blocking terrain.

for Sieges (attacking):

Onagers blast away the gates/gatehouse, then the archers move up to fire over the walls while the infantry storm the gates. Hopefully once the gates are taken a fair number of the enemy are running back to the town square and can be ridden down by my cavalry in the streets, before I move up the archers to soften up the survivors for the infantry.

sieges defensive:

Archers on the walls to try and burn any rams/towers before they get to me, while infantry guard anywhere where a siege tower / ladder is heading - cavalry head out of the side gate to pick off stragglers and come up behind the enemy in the streets if they manage to get inside the walls.

Sallys:

Much like open field battles, except I try to anchor one end of the line against my walls and work my way along. I also keep the archers on the walls for the greater range this gives them.

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Icanus

I use the following Composition Tactics:

Infantry Composition: 10 Hastati/Princepes/Urban Cohort/Legionary Cohort/Praetorian Cohort
Cavalry Composition: 5 Equites/Roman Cavalry/Praetorian Cavalry/Legionary Cavalry
Auxilia Composition: 5 Cavalry Auxilia

I never use siege weapons in an army (useless for field battles and not good for sieges) instead I use Rams, Towers, Saps, Ladders etc. good siege equipment and cost nothing but build points and a turn or two

Field Battles/Sallies:
Auxilia Composition skirmishes and keeps the enemy occupied while I move Infantry Composition to the front (side if facing Phalanx) of the enemy in range for the initial pre-charge Javelin attack and Cavalry Compoisition to the side or rear of the enemy position and charge them smacking silly, I usually leave my General well away from the actual fighting and use him as an absolute EMERGENCY unit when I am facing imminent defeat or a really long and tiring battle, once his unit has served it's purpose by getting my army out of trouble and rallying stray troops I again pull him out of combat until the next emergency

Sieges:
Defence: leave my Auxilia near the gate to harass the enemy while I position Infantry and Cavalry Compositions in strategic places throughout the city leaving my general at the town square, I then fight my units heart out until the routing starts, once that happens they fall to the town square....straight to where my general rallies them and puts up the last stand of the city.

Offence: use Rams/Towers/Saps etc. and attach a unit of infantry to them and start working on the walls, once their down (skip if facing towns with no defences) I charge my cavalry and auxilia straight into the thick of it while the infantry catches up to finish thte enemy off, once I capture the gate on my side of the field I leave my General near it to rally any courageless routers to charge yet again, once I get to the town square I make it my objective to drive the enemy out of it and keep them out of it for 3 minutes....I usually exterminate or lose every last man by the 1:50 mark so it doesn't matter.


as you can see I keep my general out of battle as he is worth more to me being able to rally the routers than risking his life in a foolish charge

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Originally Posted by Lanemerkel1

I use the following Composition Tactics:

Infantry Composition: 10 Hastati/Princepes/Urban Cohort/Legionary Cohort/Praetorian Cohort
Cavalry Composition: 5 Equites/Roman Cavalry/Praetorian Cavalry/Legionary Cavalry
Auxilia Composition: 5 Cavalry Auxilia

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No archers? I really have trouble without them.

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Originally Posted by Lanemerkel1

I never use siege weapons in an army (useless for field battles and not good for sieges) instead I use Rams, Towers, Saps, Ladders etc. good siege equipment and cost nothing but build points and a turn or two

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I might re-examine some of the "self build" siege engines - I had a few bad experiences early in the game with all my siege getting burned by fire arrows before I got through the walls, and since then I've steered clear of them. (this is also what I try and do to the enemy when defending, since the AI will often stand gettig peppered by arrows from the towers if they get caught without siege equipment or a breach to get through).

For a change I´ve tried a new deployment for my post-reform army, using the classic medieval catholic army layout, with spears in the center and swords and cavalry on the flanks. With the Auxilia infantry taking the spears role that worked quite nice against the Spanish with their armies mainly consisting of Round Shield Cav and Iberian infantry. But usually I use the chessboard layout as well, Legionary infantry in the first line, then Urban or Preatorian Cohorts with the auxiliary infantry at the flanks.