My top 3 AI issues for MTW... if anyone cares!

I just wanted to get these off my chest. I love this game, but these 3 things could have been changed that would have made it so much better!

AI retreating - all the time! AI is extremely reluctant to stand and fight! I find that 95% of the time the smaller of two fighting AI armies (slmost always defenders) simply retreats to castle, and then gets ground into dust in the seige. As a result the armies of the more powerful nations just get bigger and bigger, and factions get wiped out without even fighting for their lives!

AI army composition - awful. Why does the AI spend so much money on weak troops! Time and again it lands 3 stacks full of low grade troops in my territories, only to be crushed every time with a 9-1 casualty rate as my cavalry masssacre his poorly protected ranged troops.

Vices and virtues - later in the game, every time I appoint someone a governer or duke or whatever, the next go they seem to develop exactly the same vices which resulted in their predecessor getting removed! Is this a limiting factor on income? It does my head in! You know the ones, -10% trade and agricultural income, -20%, -40%! etc

Just to clarify, these problems seem to afflict the game on all difficulty levels!

In general, the way AI factions handle their armies is a liability.
First, they recruit over their upkeep limit (or close to it).
Second, they begin to fire all units that exceed their upkeep limit, starting with the more expensive (i.e. better) units.
As a result, they are left with oversized armies of crappy troops, whereas your faction armies are made of carefully chosen and loyal troops. No wonder that you win almost all the time, except maybe against such odds where you'd be better off retreating...
What's more, AI tends to count its chances by pure numbers. Therefore, a smaller army (even made of better troops) tends to retreat in situations where human player would stay and fight - and, for the most part, win.
As for V&Vs, I cannot say for sure why it happens. I think it may have something to do with tax level (if tax levels are very low, governors tend to acquire vices connected with sloth, if taxes are very high, then the governors eventually tend to be greedy embezzlers), zeal of province (vices such as Pious or Charitable are more likely to happen in provinces with high zeal), or the buildup or lack thereof (a province where no farmland exists for a given number of turns might eventually earn its governor the 'Bad Steward' vice). If situation in any particular province does not change, then I guess the governors may eventually acquire the same (or very similar) set of V&Vs. Of course, I don't take into account various V&Vs that seem to befall some people in a completely random fashion (e.g. "Strange" and subsequent V&Vs)... If I'm wrong, then perhaps it's just the RNG's internal dabbling...

I know this sounds a little lame, but playing MTW after RTW was a little shock. The control system of the game (like hot to command units, rotate cameras etc) was too different from RTW. Is there a mod that makes MTW controls the same as with RTW?

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Originally Posted by Loucipher

In general, the way AI factions handle their armies is a liability.
First, they recruit over their upkeep limit (or close to it).
Second, they begin to fire all units that exceed their upkeep limit, starting with the more expensive (i.e. better) units.
As a result, they are left with oversized armies of crappy troops, whereas your faction armies are made of carefully chosen and loyal troops. No wonder that you win almost all the time, except maybe against such odds where you'd be better off retreating...
What's more, AI tends to count its chances by pure numbers. Therefore, a smaller army (even made of better troops) tends to retreat in situations where human player would stay and fight - and, for the most part, win.
As for V&Vs, I cannot say for sure why it happens. I think it may have something to do with tax level (if tax levels are very low, governors tend to acquire vices connected with sloth, if taxes are very high, then the governors eventually tend to be greedy embezzlers), zeal of province (vices such as Pious or Charitable are more likely to happen in provinces with high zeal), or the buildup or lack thereof (a province where no farmland exists for a given number of turns might eventually earn its governor the 'Bad Steward' vice). If situation in any particular province does not change, then I guess the governors may eventually acquire the same (or very similar) set of V&Vs. Of course, I don't take into account various V&Vs that seem to befall some people in a completely random fashion (e.g. "Strange" and subsequent V&Vs)... If I'm wrong, then perhaps it's just the RNG's internal dabbling...

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Very interesting points regarding V&Vs loucipher! I am almost always a merchant based power, so your theory on Vices and virtues would tend the right way as I get a lot of embezzler sort of things! However, it often happens literally one turn after I appoint governors, upon which i have to sack them, and appoint a new one, sack him, appoint a new one........... it goes on until i start a new game cos i am bored

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The control system of the game (like hot to command units, rotate cameras etc) was too different from RTW. Is there a mod that makes MTW controls the same as with RTW?

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I don't think there's a mod for that because you can change them yourself via option menu, It's a default feature.



Anyway, as for the V&V, I just don't bother with them anymore. Back then there were corrupted knights, etc. I guess I kinda like the fact my generals keep getting negative tags. I however wish that they're more consistent and not appear as if it were random. Also, there are too many 'unhinged loons' or 'inbred' lol.

I guess I can consider the 'retreating' to be the biggest issue. I don't mind the AI's getting big, it's just that they don't really earn it.

STW And MTW controlls are fine.
its RTW controlls that are diferent...

but seeing as this is complaints about AI,

Id like to point out My Biggest complaint about MTW AI. Which is:
they Just dont relise there being hit by artilary.
wether its a huge bolder or whatever,
They just stand there watching there army get obliterated.

Where as, if i saw that some 1 was decimating my units. I would moove my units apart So theres less chance of stray bolders still hiting my men,
I would attempt to seek cover.
Or id be forced to moove forward before to many of my men were slaughterd.

But then again Thats the same In RTW,
and it would probably be the same in STW, but theres no atilary there. So is less noticable.


Ps

I dont think your playing the game on any great dificulty level.

If you have VI,
Try a game as the welsh On expert, or close to it.

Dont allow AI to manage taxes or build buildings,
And See how you get along.

The welsh on expert in MTW:VI Is My All time FAVE I love it.
All you hear being said (or Yelled as it were) by me from the moment i start the campaign, untill i finish is.
!!!GET OFF MY LAND SAXON PIGS DIEE!!!

Ahh you got to love MTW.

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Originally Posted by Wizardofthedribble

AI army composition - awful. Why does the AI spend so much money on weak troops! Time and again it lands 3 stacks full of low grade troops in my territories, only to be crushed every time with a 9-1 casualty rate as my cavalry masssacre his poorly protected ranged troops.

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The problem is the A.I. does not build financial improvements or start a trading empire, and as a result is it almost permanently broke. For a more challenging A.I. opponent download Medieval XL or the MedMod, both make the A.I. more financially competent and especially the latter will give you a very challenging game.

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Vices and virtues - later in the game, every time I appoint someone a governer or duke or whatever, the next go they seem to develop exactly the same vices which resulted in their predecessor getting removed! Is this a limiting factor on income? It does my head in! You know the ones, -10% trade and agricultural income, -20%, -40%! etc

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Loucipher already mentioned some important factors, but there is also the 60%-trigger (IIRC there also is a 40% trigger, but I am not sure). When you own 60% of the map victory is almost a certainty, so the game tries to slow you down by sending a lot of vices your way.

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Originally Posted by Loucipher

Second, they begin to fire all units that exceed their upkeep limit, starting with the more expensive (i.e. better) units.

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Interesting, I didn't know that. How did you find out?

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Originally Posted by Weebeast

Anyway, as for the V&V, I just don't bother with them anymore. Back then there were corrupted knights, etc. I guess I kinda like the fact my generals keep getting negative tags. I however wish that they're more consistent and not appear as if it were random. Also, there are too many 'unhinged loons' or 'inbred' lol.

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In fact, I think these have something to do with low Influence of the ruler (which generally affects the quality of the heirs) and the lack of College of Surgeons (which generally affects the health, both mental and physical, of the whole populace). High Influence factions tend to have less inbreds that those with low Influence, and they also have less mentally deranged cases amongst their ranks. Plus, when the College of Surgeons eventually gets built, you can pretty much forget about the diseases in your kingdom as well as the mentally unstable characters leading your ranks (save for some naturally irritable and hot-tempered, which was supposedly regarded as a virtue in Medieval times ~:) )

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Originally Posted by Wizardofthedribble

Very interesting points regarding V&Vs loucipher! I am almost always a merchant based power, so your theory on Vices and virtues would tend the right way as I get a lot of embezzler sort of things! However, it often happens literally one turn after I appoint governors, upon which i have to sack them, and appoint a new one, sack him, appoint a new one........... it goes on until i start a new game cos i am bored

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Thank you :bow:
Perhaps this is the case - you generate a lot of income by sea and keep your taxes very high, which fills your coffers with heaps of gold, I guess ~:) Perhaps even I (even though I hate the corruption and monetary machinations) wouldn't stay above "borrowing" some of the hard-squeezed funds in such a situation.
Back to your problem: have you tried lowering the taxes just one notch, or sewering the province from the sea trade by moving all ships away for a while? As this would change the situation, perhaps the new governor would evolve into someone quite different than his wily predecessor?
On the other hand... well, think of it that way: at least my Emissaries have a training ground of sorts before they go about bending other faction's armies (or kings) to my will ~:)

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Originally Posted by Loucipher

In fact, I think these have something to do with low Influence of the ruler (which generally affects the quality of the heirs) and the lack of College of Surgeons (which generally affects the health, both mental and physical, of the whole populace). High Influence factions tend to have less inbreds that those with low Influence, and they also have less mentally deranged cases amongst their ranks. Plus, when the College of Surgeons eventually gets built, you can pretty much forget about the diseases in your kingdom as well as the mentally unstable characters leading your ranks (save for some naturally irritable and hot-tempered, which was supposedly regarded as a virtue in Medieval times ~:) )


: have you tried lowering the taxes just one notch, or sewering the province from the sea trade by moving all ships away for a while? As this would change the situation, perhaps the new governor would evolve into someone quite different than his wily predecessor?
On the other hand...well, think of it that way: at least my Emissaries have a training ground of sorts before they go about bending other faction's armies (or kings) to my will ~:)

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this is how i imagined the V&V worked as well.
I didnt think they were 100% random,

Cos the Good runner vice is not a random event...
so why would the other vices and virtues be random,

Even in STW the legendary swordsman event was not random, so there probably is some sort of governing factor behind them all,(If they are governd by other factors. I dont want to know them. So if your going to tell some 1 Put em in Spoiler codes Please)

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Originally Posted by Just A Girl

STW And MTW controlls are fine.
its RTW controlls that are diferent...

but seeing as this is complaints about AI,

Id like to point out My Biggest complaint about MTW AI. Which is:
they Just dont relise there being hit by artilary.
wether its a huge bolder or whatever,
They just stand there watching there army get obliterated.

Where as, if i saw that some 1 was decimating my units. I would moove my units apart So theres less chance of stray bolders still hiting my men,
I would attempt to seek cover.
Or id be forced to moove forward before to many of my men were slaughterd.

But then again Thats the same In RTW,
and it would probably be the same in STW, but theres no atilary there. So is less noticable.


Ps

I dont think your playing the game on any great dificulty level.

If you have VI,
Try a game as the welsh On expert, or close to it.

Dont allow AI to manage taxes or build buildings,
And See how you get along.

The welsh on expert in MTW:VI Is My All time FAVE I love it.
All you hear being said (or Yelled as it were) by me from the moment i start the campaign, untill i finish is.
!!!GET OFF MY LAND SAXON PIGS DIEE!!!

Ahh you got to love MTW.

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Feels like we are playing a different game! I have tried various factions with varying difficulty levels and the same problems seem prevalent no matter whether it was easy, hard, expert etc.

However, the AI does seem to realise when I use ranged weapons against it, and generally gets the units under fire to move to a loose formation where appropriate (ie, units that are not about to engage in melee combat).

[QUOTE=Ludens]The problem is the A.I. does not build financial improvements or start a trading empire, and as a result is it almost permanently broke. For a more challenging A.I. opponent download Medieval XL or the MedMod, both make the A.I. more financially competent and especially the latter will give you a very challenging game.


The thing is though, that the AI factions don't appear to be broke, they just spend all their money on the wrong things! They have huge armies compared to me, just filled with rubbish troops!

The Italians and French seem inclined to develop naval power and trading empires, and in my current game a lot of the provinces I capture seem to be very developed to be honest (Byzantines, High, Hard)

Thanks for the advice on the mods, will definitely take a look. Any quick help on where I can find them?

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Originally Posted by Wizardofthedribble

Thanks for the advice on the mods, will definitely take a look. Any quick help on where I can find them?

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They can be found here.

I would definitely recommend the XL mod and/or the BKB mod. I personally have only played XL, but a lot of people really like BKB's mod as well.

One of my problems with the AI is that they oftentimes don't act upon their men getting peppered with arrows. There are times where they will charge or get their men in loose formation to avoid the arrows but that isn't always the case. I've had plenty of battles where I can safely use my archers to wittle down the enemy troops while his men just stand there and take the hits. This happens a lot more when I'm defending than attacking too.

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Originally Posted by Wizardofthedribble

The thing is though, that the AI factions don't appear to be broke, they just spend all their money on the wrong things! They have huge armies compared to me, just filled with rubbish troops!

The Italians and French seem inclined to develop naval power and trading empires, and in my current game a lot of the provinces I capture seem to be very developed to be honest (Byzantines, High, Hard)

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When the A.I. does have some rich lands it can become quite powerful, and several factions are programmed to go for naval control. However, it doesn't develop its land like a human player would, that is, it doesn't build farms, and only sometimes docks/merchants. Instead, it spends its income on hordes of peasants, spearmen and militia to keep it's borders save.

I am liking the XL mod very much! Amazing efforts by the authors!

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Originally Posted by Wizardofthedribble

I am liking the XL mod very much! Amazing efforts by the authors!

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I love XL too. I've only played three campaigns, but with peasants gone and more farming income, AI army quality is very much improved. I used to sweat when invaded by a large force only to sigh relief when it was mainly peasants and UM. I do miss the peasants in that peasant levies are a reality. So, not having masses of peasants in some armies is ahistorical. But, so is AI army maintenance/building etc. So, I haven't minded sacrificing a small historical reality to rectify a glaring mishap. And, you can more or less think of UM, nilla archers, thralls, nilla spears, etc. as peasant levies in your own mind.

As to complaints about AI cowardice. Yes, I believe it's a little much. Many times I've fought when vastly outnumbered just to try to take as many with me as possible (plus reducing by my own casualties the number of troops retreating to the fortification, which makes for a longer siege, more time for relief, or maybe even a good slaughtering if the AI has no choice but to assault....for that matter it is pretty much usually wise to fight a little bit before retreating to the castle, no matter what the odds...you can always withdraw after making sure both you and the enemy lose a satisfactory number of men) only to find I've made a stunning victory. To be truthful, it's not often the AI attacks me with overwhelming odds. The always seem to send in a prudent amount....I call it just enough to not be able to defeat me!! So, it's aggravating that the AI seems to just take numbers into account when the tables are turned.

Yeh, my sentiments entirely.

In my current XL campaign the Almohads have stacks of armies, and no one is making a stand, and consequently the French, Germans, English, Genoese have all been rubbed out simply by retreating! The Spanish and Portugeuse are long gone so it will soon be up to my Crusaders to make the stand for Christian Europe! Would have been interesting if someone else had tried, or at least put up a fight! I might have moved to their cause if I had seen some real resistance!