MAKEDONIA...the land of aliens...

Its quite strange to hear people stating that ancient Makedonians were aliens...
without any separate culture, language, religion, architechture...
Now you may think that im gone mad but if I state that they were Hellenic people will call me nationalist, mazochist, analyst or anything ending in "-ist"...
Its 14 years now that this bizzare propaganda has exploded and is growing day after day, and I wonder are the money of George Soros that much that triggered a US recognition?
What should we do for people open their eyes and understand that none of us cares about whether a country needs or not a name or a flag or whatever as long as they dont steal it from neighbouring countries...?
Its quite disturbing seeng people in discussions about various historical mods or topics concerning RTW stating that the "Makedonians" were fighting the "Greeks" when its clear from the archeological evidence that Makedonians were as Greek as the Spartans, Atheneans, Cretans, Corinthians, Beotians...
Now you can say "Do you have evidence?" yes I do:
From "A History of Macedonia"
by Malcom Errington (Philipps-Universitat in Marburg, Germany)
University of California Press, 1993

Page 3
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names may be regarded nowadays as certain."

Page 4
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greek all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II."

From "Alexander's empire"
by John Pentland Mahaffy (University of Dublin, Ireland)
G Putnam's sons, London, 1881

Page 8
"... for with Alexander the stage of Greek influence spread across the world. "

From "The tutorial history of Greece, to 323 B.C. : from the earliest times to the death of Demosthenes"
by W. J. Woodhouse (Universiy of Sydney, Australia)
University Tutorial Press, 1904, (reprinted 1944)

Page 216
" This was Macedonia in the strict sense, the land where settled immigrands of Greek stock later to be called Macedonians"



From "The Western Experience"
by Mortimer Chambers (University of California),
Raymond Grew (University of Michigan),
David Herlihy (Harvard University),
Theodore Rabb (Princeton University)
and Isser Woloch (Columbia University)
Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2nd edition , 1997

Page 79
"THE MONARCHS OF MACEDONIA:
Macedonia (or Macedon) was an ancient, somewhat backward kingdom in northen Greece. Its emergence as a Hellenic power was due to a resourceful king, Philip II (359-336), whose career has been unjustly overshadowed by the deeds of his son, Alexander the Great".

Diodoros of Sicily talks about the links of Alexander to the Greek mythology (Diodoros, Historical Library 17.1.5):

"On his father's side Alexander was a descendant of Heracles and on his mother's he could claim the blood of the Aeacids, so that from his ancestors on both sides he inherited the physical and moral qualities of greatness."

Herodotus confirms that the Macedonians were people of Greek origin (Histories of Herodotus Book 5, paragraph 22.1)

"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history.That they are so has been already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia. "

And later on (Book 8, paragraph 137.1) he verifies it:

"This Alexander was seventh in descent from Perdiccas, who got for himself the tyranny of Macedonia in the way that I will show. Three brothers of the lineage of Temenus came as banished men from Argos to Illyria, Gauanes and Aeropus and Perdiccas; and from Illyria they crossed over into the highlands of Macedonia till they came to the town Lebaea."

Also in the very first book of his "Histories" (paragraph 56.3 ) Herodotus states about the origin of the the Greek people :

"For in the days of king Deucalion it inhabited the land of Phthia, then the country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus son of Hellen; driven from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, it settled about Pindus in the territory called Macedonian; from there again it migrated to Dryopia, and at last came from Dryopia into the Peloponnese, where it took the name of Dorian."

Thoukididis also verifies that the Macedonian kings' origin was from the Greek town of Argos (Book 2, 99.3):

"The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos."

Aristotelis, the teacher of Alexander the Great says about the rivers in Macedonia (Meteorologika, Book I, Par. 13):

"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope."

Finally Isocratis states (To Philip, paragraph 32):

"Argos is the land of your fathers, and is entitled to as much consideration at your hands as are your own ancestors;"




On the language of the Macedonians

The Macedonians spoke the Greek language as the ancient authors verify. The Roman writer Titus Livius says : (from "The Foundation of the City", Paragraph 31)

"The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same language, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day."

Didorus of Sicily (17.67.1) says:

"After this Alexander left Dareius's mother, his daughters, and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the Greek language, and marching on with his army on the fourth day reached the Tigris River. "




On the religion of the Macedonians

The Macedonians had the same religion as the rest of the Greeks, they worshiped the twelve Olympian Gods.

Two quotes from Plutarch's "Alexander"

"Philip, after this vision, sent Chaeron of Megalopolis to consult the oracle of Apollo at Delphi, by which he was commanded to perform sacrifice, and henceforth pay particular honour, above all other gods, to Zeus;"

"He [Alexander he Great] erected altars, also, to the gods, which the kings of the Praesians even in our time do honour to when they pass the river, and offer sacrifice upon them after the Greek manner."

Diodoros of Sicily also makes clear that the Macedonnians worshiped the twelve Greek Gods:

Histories, Chapter 16, 95.2

"Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession statues of the twelve Gods brought with great artistry and adorned with a dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods."

Histories, Chapter 16, 91.5-6

"He (King Philip) wanted as many Greeks as possible to take part in the festivities in honour of the gods, and so planned brilliant musical contests and lavish banquets for his friends and guests. Out of all Greece he summoned his personal guest-friends and ordered the members of his court to bring along as many as they could of their acquaintances from abroad."




On the culture of the Macedonians

"Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with their constant campaigns. ... The hooves of the horses had been worn thin by steady marching. The arms and armour were wearing out, and the Hellenic clothing was quite gone. They had to clothe themselves in materials of the barbarians,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2)




On the geography of Macedonian

The great philosopher Aristotelis (Aristotle) considers the rivers in Macedonias as "rivers in the Greek world"

"Of the rivers in the Greek world, the Achelous flows from Pindus, the Inachus from the same mountain; the Strymon, the Nestus, and the Hebrus all three from Scombrus; many rivers, too, flow from Rhodope. ..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)

and later on he says:

"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes..."
(Aristotelis, Meteorology, Book 1, Par. 13)




What did the Macedonians think of themselves?

It is very clear from the surviving ancient sources that the Macedonians considered themselves to be Greeks.

In Herodotus (Book 9, paragraph 45.2) Alexander I , king of Macedonia says:

"... I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery ..."

Alexander III (the Great) talking to the king of the Persians says: (Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II,14,4)

"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Greece and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury [...] I have been appointed hegemon of the Greeks [...] "

Arrian ("Alexander the Great" 1,16,7) describes the following incident: After winning an important battle in Asia ...

"He [Alexander the Great] sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from the barbarians dwelling in Asia"

(Diodoros of Sicily 16.93.1)

"Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of spearmen."

And from Flavious Josephus (11.8.5) we have the following incident where Alexander clearly considers himself a Greek:

"And when the book of Daniel was showed to him (Alexander the Great) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended"




What did the rest of the Greeks think?

The ancient Greek people alwayws considered the Macedonians to be Greek as well. This can be easily proved because the Macedonians were members of all the Greek institutions, such as the Delphic amphictiony:

Pausanias writes in his book "Description of Greece" (10.3.3):

"The Phocians were deprived of their share in the Delphic sanctuary and in the Greek assembly, and their votes were given by the Amphictyons to the Macedonians."

and also in his book "Phokis" (8,2 & 4):

"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: [...] the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race [...] In my day there were thirty members: six from each of Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly [...] "

Aeschines (On the Embassy 2.32) gives evidence of the Macedonian king Amyntas taking part at the congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks:

"For at a congress of the Lacedaemonian allies and the other Greeks, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat, was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control, he joined the other Greeks in voting to help Athens to recover possession of Amphipolis. As proof of this I presented from the public records the resolution of the Greek congress and the names of those who voted".

Isocratis, one of the most impotant orators of ancient Greece says in his speach "To Philip" addressed to King Philip II of Macedonia (Paragaraph 127):

"Therefore, since the others are so lacking in spirit, I think it is opportune for you to head the war against the King; and, while it is only natural for the other descendants of Heracles, and for men who are under the bonds of their polities and laws, to cleave fondly to that state in which they happen to dwell, it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom, to consider all Greece your fatherland, as did the founder of your race, and to be as ready to brave perils for her sake as for the things about which you are personally most concerned."

The Sicilian historian Diodoros says in his history about King Philip of Macedonia (Diodoros, Historical Library 16.95.1-2)

"Such was the end of Philip, who had made himself the greatest of the kings in Europe in his time, and because of the extent of his kingdom had made himself a throned companion of the twelve gods. He had ruled twenty-four years. He is known to fame as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a throne won for himself the greatest empire in the Greek world, while the growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy.

Even the Persians considerd Macedonia a part of Greece! The Persian king Mardonius says : (From the Histories of Herodotus Book 7, Paragraph 9.1-2).

"We know the manner of their battle- we know how weak their power is; already have we subdued their children who dwell in our country, the Ionians, Aeolians, and Dorians. I myself have had experience of these men when I marched against them by the orders of thy father; and though I went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself, yet not a soul ventured to come out against me to battle. [...] Yet the Greeks are accustomed to wage wars, as I learn, and they do it most senselessly in their wrongheadedness and folly [...]. Since they speak the same language, they should end their disputes by means of heralds or messengers, or by any way rather than fighting; if they must make war upon each other, they should each discover where they are in the strongest position and make the attempt there. The Greek custom, then, is not good; and when I marched as far as the land of Macedonia, it had not come into their minds to fight."

Mardonius marched against the Greeks and he "went as far as Macedonia, and came but a little short of reaching Athens itself". Obviously he considers Macedonia a part of Greece!
I find it sad that nevertheless many will still be trapped in the Skopijan propaganda but as it is said its noble to fight even for a doomed cause...

Hellenes

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What should we do for people open their eyes and understand that none of us cares about whether a country needs or not a name or a flag or whatever as long as they dont steal it from neighbouring countries...?

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I'm not sure what you are trying to prove since you allude to something but not enough for myself to grasp...

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove since you allude to something but not enough for myself to grasp...

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Well its obvious that if one called Mexico--> United States of America that wouldnt look that nice would it?
Its very embarassing to me as a Greek to have to prove that Makedonia was/is a Hellenic word, a Hellenic culture and Hellenic people...its just the same to prove that im not an elephant...

Hellenes

So no one bar Greeks can use the word Democracy or the concept?

Texas and California used to be part of Mexico... that is why a lot of cities have Spanish names.

Likewise a lot of places north of Greek Macedonia used to be under the sway of Ancient Macedonia... so there would be cultural artifacts to the north. And vice a versa.

Also just because the Ancient Macedonians were Greek doesn't stop them fighting other Greeks... after all it was City states vs City states.

Oh ferchrissakes. National sentiment. Guess that had to pop up in these forums eventually too.

Personally ? I don't give a damn. Far as I'm concerned the fact the Macedonians had their own distinct kingdom, and AFAIK were considered some degree or another to be 'foreigner' by the peninsular Greeks, is quite enough of a distinction. Odds are they considered themselves distinct as well, if I know anything about how these things tend to work.

Nobody's claiming the French and Germans are the same bunch despite the fact both can trace themselves back to the more or less same cluster of Germanic "barbarians" living in the roughly same geographical region either, now are they ? Or the Finns and the Estonians, or the Norse and the Swedish ?

Just let it be, that's my advice. National identification is a *very* ":wall:" subject, and pretty pointless too.

don't wory, I believe that the Macedonians were Greek.
:2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

So no one bar Greeks can use the word Democracy or the concept?

Texas and California used to be part of Mexico... that is why a lot of cities have Spanish names.

Likewise a lot of places north of Greek Macedonia used to be under the sway of Ancient Macedonia... so there would be cultural artifacts to the north. And vice a versa.

Also just because the Ancient Macedonians were Greek doesn't stop them fighting other Greeks... after all it was City states vs City states.

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Wait...thats the SAME thing that im saying...though if one hasnt got a taste of the Skopjan propaganda its not that easy to understand the level of misinformation and disgusting trasvesty of history that is going on...
If one comes and states that they are "Makedonians" without speaking Hellenic, being BULGARIAN themselves Im sorry but Ill object since people use posters like this with clear expansionistic views towards my country:

https://img82.imageshack.us/img82/7429/a4422a9as.th.jpg

Also there is a espionage organisation acting inside Greece called "Rainbow" that propages the existance of a imaginary minority in Greece that are "Macedonians" aka Bulgarians...
http://www.florina.org/

Hellenes

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and I wonder are the money of George Soros that much that triggered a US recognition?

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What does this have to do with it? Ole Georgy is a leftist that gave loads of money to try and take down Bush (unsuccessfully), but I don't know how he's connected with Macedonia and Greece.

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

What does this have to do with it? Ole Georgy is a leftist that gave loads of money to try and take down Bush (unsuccessfully), but I don't know how he's connected with Macedonia and Greece.

Crazed Rabbit

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"when the Macedonian government published a textbook showing a map of "Greater Macedonia," including large chunks of Greece, Athens was not amused. In a [January 23]1995 New Yorker profile of Soros, the special relationship between Soros and the Macedonian model of "multiculturalism" was explored:

"Nowhere has Soros put more energy and money into bolstering a government than in Macedonia. "George is the savior of Macedonia," his friend Morton Abramowitz declared. And the Macedonian representative in Washington, Ljubica Acevska, says of two separate Soros loans of twenty five million dollars, 'People found it difficult to believe. The opposition said, 'A country does not help you- why would an individual help you?' Remember, twenty-five million dollars in Macedonia is like billions here... the fact that Soros did it helped the government a great deal.'"

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j031901.html

Hmmm...

Hellenes

Soros?

come on, that name stinks of olive oil, feta and pretty old buildings.
Come to think of it, George is a popular name with the Greeks too, isn't it?

I don't know if Soros is Greek or not but if I had a name like that I'd be willing to pose as one.

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Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff

Soros?

come on, that name stinks of olive oil, feta and pretty old buildings.

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Isnt Soros a Hungarian or something?

Watchman

The makedonians are VERY different story to the Germans/Franks...its more like the Northen Irish and Eire...without the religious distinction...

Hellenes

Uh, so what exactly is the issue here anyway ? "Macedonian separationism/nationalism/expansionism at Greek expense" type of scenario, or a "Greek panhellenic at Macedonian expense" one ? I haven't been quite able to figure it out from your posts thus far.

I don't think that Makedonia comes from aliens.... Even if there are some similarities with Chewbaca.... ~;)

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Uh, so what exactly is the issue here anyway ? "Macedonian separationism/nationalism/expansionism at Greek expense" type of scenario, or a "Greek panhellenic at Macedonian expense" one ? I haven't been quite able to figure it out from your posts thus far.

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Greek Panhellenic?
Thats a good one...
The Greek Panhellenic Idea aka the Great Idea is dead 80 years now...after the M.Asian war.
Why you insist on calling the Bulgarian Tito's offspring state with a Greek name? What if I call Greece Finland? How that would sound? You may have your prejudice but it wouldnt harm if one opened his eyes and examined some evidence...

Hellenes

PS
The mere fact that the Greek government lifted the economic sanctions imposed on this Bulgarian state because of the use of the Vergina sun, and reestablished the trade and the Greek investments thus not leaving them to starve shows a move of good will that the Skopjian propagandists dont respect with their actions...

Hellenes

Okay, it's still muddy. What exactly is the issue here ? Who're the ones making a big ultranationalist stink ? Greeks or Macedonians ? And to what end ?

pah, I'd still pretend to be Greek, even if I were Hungarian.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Okay, it's still muddy. What exactly is the issue here ? Who're the ones making a big ultranationalist stink ? Greeks or Macedonians ? And to what end ?

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Its the Finnish and the Russians, or maybe the English and the Spanish, or wait the Germans and the French...im calling any nation anything that I like you might be angry or confused but thats ok you see I have been persuaded to believe that the country called "Greece" is inhabited by Germans or Russians or English (the Greek people have nothing to do with these nations but i can say whatever I want) or Spanish...
Its the same as you calling the Skopjan Bulgars "Macedonians"...

Hellenes

I assume from that that the issue is some sort of Macedonian nationalism.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

I assume from that that the issue is some sort of Macedonian nationalism.

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Its the Vardarska BULGARIAN state that has NO history on its own that is propagising its way calling themselves "Macedonians" and posing as such, with the backing of George Soros' millions. They have NO nationalism since they are NOT the "Macedonian" nation (which NEVER existed since it was part of the Hellenic group) they just trying to get in the Agean AND following the long dead plan of the communist Yugoslavian Tito's regime...

Hellenes

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

http://tinypic.com/m8ze39.jpg

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

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"Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery"
Fixed...

Hellenes

Ah. Thank you for explaining the issue. Now, is there someone else currently claiming the designation Macedonian, or might the aforementioned "Bulgars" as well start calling themselves that if they now really want to ?

(I do so loathe nationalism in all its forms...)

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Originally Posted by solypsist

http://tinypic.com/m8ze39.jpg

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?...

Your first post was a bit lengthy.

And if a Canadian decided to call himself a New Jerseyian, I wouldn't be too mad. We all know it's just the Canadian's wishful thinking.

(That's a jest. Please don't kill me, Beirut, Goofball, and all you other guys. There sure are a lot of you. :help: )

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Ah. Thank you for explaining the issue. Now, is there someone else currently claiming the designation Macedonian, or might the aforementioned "Bulgars" as well start calling themselves that if they now really want to ?

(I do so loathe nationalism in all its forms...)

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Well if we as Greeks can start calling ourselves as Finnish, launching a huge global propaganda campaign that the inhabitants of Finland are NOT Finnish, that it was us NOT the inhabitants of Finland that wrote Kalevala, we took the Finnish flag and on top of that didnt learn a single Finnish word kept speaking Greek AND claiming to be the ONLY true Finnish whilst having 100% Greek culture and 0% Finnish then the Skopjan Bulgars can call themselves whatever they want...

Hellenes

What, did you get tired of flaming the EB forum? I see you still have problems separating ethnicity and nationality.

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Originally Posted by NeonGod

What, did you get tired of flaming the EB forum? I see you still have problems separating ethnicity and nationality.

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Im sorry if I insulted your delicate sight...
Would you excuse me?
Im just a Korean that will be a Swedish tommorow...

Hellenes

And no more coherent than in th EB forum, either.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

Well if we as Greeks can start calling ourselves as Finnish, launching a huge global propaganda campaign that the inhabitants of Finland are NOT Finnish, that it was us NOT the inhabitants of Finland that wrote Kalevala, we took the Finnish flag and on top of that didnt learn a single Finnish word kept speaking Greek AND claiming to be the ONLY true Finnish whilst having 100% Greek culture and 0% Finnish then the Skopjan Bulgars can call themselves whatever they want...

Hellenes

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I'd think they were pretty silly if they tried that, but so long as they didn't start squabbling over territory I wouldn't really care to be entirely honest. I consider most form of national identification to be largely artificial anyway.