Doubts about EB.

Doubts about EB though certain things are beyond the control of EB and are inherent to the stupidity of RTW I am beginning to wonder, playing as Rome I seem to be faced with an inordinate amount of rebels that appear as far as I can see for no apparent reason. I could appreciate the appearance of Spartacus but captain irreleventus no. The tactical balancing of units with certain strengths that unless properly addressed cannot easily be beaten very good, but taking a phalanx doggy style surely should be decisive! perhaps that is beyond the abilities of EB to implement constrained by the original game.

:skull:

I had great difficulty getting through that text. Could you please use more periods and commas next time you write?
Lest you type enormous sentences like C. Ivlivs Cæsar. :sweatdrop:

As to the subject matter, I am not qualified to say anything, since I haven't tried EB.

Think about the rebels as armies associated, for the most part, with small (ie, non-map) cities. In the ancient world, and really up until Roman supremacy, there were always neighbors who could cause a little trouble. It gets annoying, but in my opinion those annoying rebels are quite realistic.

If I am not all wrong pops of rebels can't be changed in version 1.2. When the next version of game comes, to 1.5 that is, I think in that version you can control how often rebels pop.

Perhaps you are right about rebels along lets say the Dacian border. But in a Romanised province that is supposed to be contented having rebels just popping up I wonder. Maybe I am not managing my cities properly though in RTW in the end no matter what you did you ultimately ran in to trouble with squalor. To be honest I do not know how fluid the Roman borders were in this time period I suspect the movement of tribes was fairly widespread. But when you’re slogging it out in Greece and up pops some rebels outside a well run Rome!

Nobody really knows what causes brigands to appear in R:TW. There have been a few theories advanced in the Ludus Magna, but nothing definite. Other than that, rebels were indeed plentyful in R:TW 1.2, and other than modding them out entirely there is nothing EB can do about that. R:TW 1.5 makes the frequency of rebel apparences moddable, however.

The phalanx problem you describe is again hard-coded: a phalanx can turn far too easily. I did spot some improvements in this in 1.3 and 1.5, but I haven't played them enough to be definite.

You shouldn't hunt down the brigands actively. Just hunt them if they besiege your cities of cut off very important supply (reinforcement) routes. Playing EB that way makes it much more enjoyable (same thing goes for RTW - don't hunt the brigands actively, fight them "defensively"). Playing in that way, I've only one about five times in 40 game years been forced to actually fight brigand armies. Sometimes moving a large army nearby and attacking makes them retreat out of your way, clearing the supply rout for you and making it unnecessary to actually fight them.

I don't know, it makes sense to me. Spartacus' revolt was far from the only slave revolt in Ancient history, and a great deal of the over-taxed, under-fed and opressed masses that the poor sods under Roman control were indeed had to resort to briganding to be able to survive.

I wouldn't assume that it was all peace, quiet and prosperity in the Roman empire - especially in the Republican period. Far, far, far from it. The only people that really benefited substantially from Roman rule were the small elite in Rome...

There are revolts, rogue military units and brigands very often not only in the ancient world, but through out history. Just because most of them failed horribely didn't mean they didn't happen...

Playing a bit of 1.5 vanilla, I sorta took a liking to those rebels, they weren't pesky anymore, but rather realistic, and great fun to put to the sword :rtwno: with my captains (who sometimes became good young men for the family :ave:.

Realistic? What's realistic about one unit of rorari appearing between 3 cities that have happy green faces and blocking trade? Why revolt with a unit of rorari? Why would rorari revolt? Slaves who revolted i doubt would have little more than a wooden shield and a cheap nasty spear... And the Romans wouldn't say a unit of rorari have revolted outside cannae would they? Because they wouldn't be called rorari... The rebels that popup in this game should just be a special unit only available to them with a simple name like 'rebel spearmen'... Just men armed with a cheap spear and shield, not rorari like what appears on the Italian peninsula... :wall:

I know it isn't in EB's power to change this, but something does need to be done... Instead of these ridiculous 1 unit rebel 'armies' popping up... Why can't a large-ish army just popup occasionally and wreak havoc?

Well perhaps in Romes case that would be true. But in other places, there was often in fighting between nobles, like in Parthia, where there would be fully equipped cataphracts and horse archers. Of course those would be different from the nomads that raid the edges of their terrotory or the bandits that prey on cavarans.

Keep in mind some of these 'rebels' have to also represent a lot of varied things - from a unit or two brigands on the roads somewhere to invading armies from other eleutheroi provinces to local uprisings with different claimants to power/thrones. There is a lot of variation that has to be compacted into one way of representing them in the game.

I just have to say, a brigand containing 6+ units Gestastae is madness.

It is... And you know what? I've almost had that happen... I've had 4... And when your best units are mostly lugoe and clydabbre with one city that can produce decent swordsmen and you can't afford to recruit any leuce epos... It REALLY does suck the big one...

I believe that the occurence of gesatae in rebel armies is being toned down a bit in the patch. I also think their unit sizes are being reduced.

I've had rebels stand around in my lands for 20+ turns. I don't think they'll ever attack me. I don't have a problem with them. My Baktria campaign saw two uprisings in my indian provinces. I quickly took the cities back however, and kept garrisons in them afterwards. It drew my armies from the selucid front and proved to be a cool obsticale. I needed to move my armies, separate them, and bring them back to battle the Selucid empire.

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Originally Posted by LordElrond

I believe that the occurence of gesatae in rebel armies is being toned down a bit in the patch. I also think their unit sizes are being reduced.

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Yup ... and still many many new units to put in,

In the next build the gesatae will have 60 men per unit rather than 80 as to be more in line with most elites.

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Originally Posted by Shigawire

I am not qualified to say anything, since I haven't tried EB.

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Huh?

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

In the next build the gesatae will have 60 men per unit rather than 80 as to be more in line with most elites.

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Hmm, will the recruitment costs and upkeep be reduced as well? I am one of the few people that think they are perfectly balanced and people who cry about fighting them, should go recruit some.

Upkeep is determined per man. So the upkeep will be lower than the 80-man unit size now that it is 60 men.

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Originally Posted by jebes

Hmm, will the recruitment costs and upkeep be reduced as well? I am one of the few people that think they are perfectly balanced and people who cry about fighting them, should go recruit some.

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I disagree. I just had my first battle fighting them. After first chewing through a unit of peltasts, I send a second one (with 4 chevrons) to pin it so I had time to bring my 3 units of thessalian hippeis (!) to the scene. I repeatedly charged those damn nudists with all three, and each time they would kill only 2-3 men or so. the peltasts routed. So did 2 of my thessalian hippeis. Eventually I pinned the gestaete (29 men at this point, and still at impetuous morale!), let it tire out a bit and charged into their bare asses with my remaining thessalian hippeis. Finally they routed.
Net result: I lost over 80 Thessalian horses and 120 peltasts on these guys. I'm playing on hard difficulty and the gestaete were at valour 2, but still that's ridiculous (none of my units were greens either)

Skirmish with them first, that's they way to wear them down.

Anyway, the costs do go down, the new costs will be 2506, down from 3000 something.

It was a siege, the AI sallied. Because they had a 5-3 numerical advantage I thought the best strategy was to deploy my phezetharoi in one long phalanx parked straight before the entrance. It did a fine job keeping a huge blob of those botroas (?) at pike point but the gastaete went around it.

Otherwise I do actively skirmish. I use at least 2 units of slingers, toxotai and akontisoi each in a typical army plus 3 or 4 peltasts. Much more entertaining then just using half a stack of pezhetaroi and rolling over the enemy.

I never had any problems with gaesatae. Playing as the Arverni I fought a rebel army with 2 gaesatae, 2 mala gaeroas and 1 leuce epos 1 Brihentin. The gaesatae were on the left wing, so I pinned them down with my 2 sotaroas and sent my leuce epos (alright, so I had 4 of them) to their flanks to shower them with javelins, while tempting the gaesatae forward with my mala gaeroas. Meanwhile my 2 Botroas and 2 brihentin were holding off all the other units. The gaesatae attempted to charge my botroas' flank (all I had on my right flank were sotaroas who retreated as they charged, uncovering my centre) but by this time their 2 hit points had been worn down to one and they had lost about a fifth of their number. The 4 leuce epos hit them in the rear having exhausted their ammo about a second before their front ranks contacted the botroas, and the gaesatae routed without so much as even chewing up one single unit. A little anticlimactic, maybe, but I don't think I want to see the gaesatae acting out the horror stories everyone has been telling about them. But, seriously. Ranged attacks will rip them apart and dampen their morale. Anyone who tries to meet their charge with their own shock deserves what they get.

Gaestae were the bane of my Averni campaign...

Sad to hear that. Triarii are the bane of mine. The Romani churn them out like there's no tomorrow, and they are SO DAMN HARD to rout. And when you happen to have 6 units of Equites nibbling away at your sides knowing that at best you have Botroas and Bataroas to face them (Too poor to afford gaesatae, you see) it makes for some very close-shaven battles. Add to that the fact that you can't retrain main battle line troops in Italy, and it means my campaign is seriously set back every time I fight a battle.