deception

How does RTW's AI handle deception? Can the ai be tricked into becoming an Allied just for you to turn on "it" once you've move youre entire army in on key positions, such as major income producing cities?

I found this on "Sonshi.com" forum.

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was playing Age of Empires recently and decided to put some of what I've learned about deception in the AoW to a test.

I started the match off with myself and one other computer player set to allies. I built up my city and my army and began with my plan. I mentally imagined that I convinced my opponent to allow me to install military units in it's country for it's own protection. After installing several well placed units (each of which consisted of four walls with a gate within which were 10 to 20 soldiers and one or two trebuchets) I amassed two brigades of infantry and archers and put them into ideal positions...

I then broke my alliance with the country and crushed it leaving nothing behind within less than two minutes.

Deception is amazingly powerful...

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Well, the AI being as stupid as it is, it will probably allow you to station rediculously large armies near it's capital. It's not really deception, as you're moving entire legions into it's land, but if you get military acces, they'll probably fall for it.

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Originally Posted by Drusus Magnus

if you get military acces

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:dizzy2: :laugh4:

How the hell do you get military access? I've never got it yet... maybe it's my dull northern English accent, but the buggers will never play ball with me.:help:

Deception is not really necessary. Just make 2 attacks preferably by sea to different parts of the ai empire and you'll see what I mean. The ai can't really seem to respond to multiprong attacks, let alone deception.

Nevertheless a fun thing to do is try to ambush the ai(though I agree the bonus from this is dubious).

Has anyone tried building a fort next to a city?

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Originally Posted by dej2

Has anyone tried building a fort next to a city?

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I presume you mean beside an enemy city. In my experience its a royal pain defending forts. I usually put them in strategic postions -choke points and put a crippled unit or peons in them. I let them get seiged or whatever while I prepare the counter.

One thing I havn't done is put forts on important enemy roads to choke them financially , like blockading ports. That bears consideration.

Why do you need to decieve the AI? Is it that hard? Or is it just too easy you want to constantly be findng new ways to own the AI for personal satisfaction?

maybe he likes being sneaky?

Actually I'm trying to apply some of the principles I've read in "Art of War". the book was written in 200 BC by Sun Tzu. The book I'm reading was translated by Ralph Sawyer. He stresses the historical aspect, watch out for translations that are based on modern business principle... if you're more interested in military history.

Here is a sample of the book:

"Display profits to entice them. Create disorder and take them."
"If they are substantial, prepare for them, if they are strong avoid them."
"If they are angry perturb them; be deferential to foster their arrogance."
"If they are rested, force them to exert themselves."
"If they are united, cause them to be separated."
"Attack where they are unprepared."
"Go forth where they will not expect it."

Yep that is a wonderful book.

And if you really like it, read the Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tzu, it will blow your mind away if you understand it. Sun Tzu tells you to stay close to the Tao in the Art of War, and most (if not all) of what Sun Tzu came up has its roots in the teaching of Lao Tzu.

Here are three samples from the Tao:

"The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin of
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only manifestations

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understand."


"When people see some things as beautiful,
others become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
others become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

There the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess.
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever."


"The Master doesn't try to be powerful;
thus he is truly powerful.
The ordinary man keeps reaching for power;
thus he never has enough,

The Master does nothing,
yet he leaves nothing undone.
The ordinary man is always doing things,
yet many more are left to be done.

The kind man does something,
yet something remains undone.
The just man does something,
and leaves many things to be done.
The moral man does something,
and when no one responds,
he rolls up his sleeves and uses force.

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

There the Master concerns himself
with the depths and not the surface,
with the fruit and not the flower.
He has no will of his own.
He dwells in reality,
and lets all illusions go."

The important point is in the 4th section. When the Tao is lost, there is goodness, but this doesn't mean "good" as we think, it means people define good and evil. When that is lost, people define morals, when that is lost, people have rituals left. The "good" ritual of going to church for example. The beginning of chaos.

Essentially Taoism is a rejection of all belief systems. You should focus your life on the "system" that formed all belief systems, the Tao. It is where everything was spawned from. Thus it is the "truth". Everything else is someone's opinion of the truth. But the Tao isn't a belief system, if you try to understand, try to name, you are putting your opinions on it. It can't be named.

To better explain this, I'd like to explain one part of psychology, the ABC system (note this is a complex idea that cannot be fully explained here).

A represents an event, B your belief system, and C the consequences.

Now psycholgists will say that it isn't A or C that bothers people, but B. Its your belief system about what is "bad" or "good" that defines people.

For instance:

A = Failing a test.

B= Belief system: If you believe that failing a test doesn't matter, than the consequences (C) don't matter. If you believe that failing is bad, it will cause bad grades, which cause you to get a bad job then it creates consequences.

It is a system of illusions, of constructs, it isn't based in reality. Thus the Tao doesn't define good and evil, because that hurts people. "When people see some things as good, others become bad." If nothing is good, nothing is bad, thus you have nothing to fight or work against.

Do nothing, and nothing is left undone.

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Originally Posted by dej2

How does RTW's AI handle deception? Can the ai be tricked into becoming an Allied just for you to turn on "it" once you've move youre entire army in on key positions, such as major income producing cities?

I found this on "Sonshi.com" forum.

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Never bothered to try, and don't think it could work unless of course you start out allied with a faction.Meaning you could try doing this while playing a Roman faction and then circumvallating (SP?) all your Roman ''allies'' only to take their cities and destroy all their armies the moment you decide Civil war is the way to go.

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Razor1952

One thing I havn't done is put forts on important enemy roads to choke them financially , like blockading ports. That bears consideration.

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This works?
Didn't know you could blockade roads.

I've noticed that the alliance thing works very different between Age of Empires and Total War.

For starters, in AOE, they offer to become your ally, usually when you build your market, and they ask for tribute, and they will become your ally if you comply.

My experience with that is that they usually get wiped out shortly after becoming your ally. The best that you benefit from them after that is that you can repair whatever buildings they had, then set them to "neutral", and then convert them. This has given me thousands of houses, as well as many Universities, Blacksmiths, and other buildings.

For Total War, rarely have I ever had one agree to be my ally when I asked, but after proving my strength, many come to me wanting to be my ally. I have never had one grant military access when I asked, but there have been a few include military access when they ask me.

For those who ally with me and are strong enough, we will go on to win the game. Sometimes they will stab me in the back, and I give them the "preferential treatment."

They move to the top of the list for me to work on a "faction destroyed" tile. The Celts in fact backstabbed me a few nights ago as I played as the Allemani. They went to the top of my "list" and I started systematically taking them down. The last was a town on the mainland, a little East of me. I took the town, and then pursued their last Faction leader and about 200 men (the last they had) to where they crossed the border into Burgundi's territory. I suppose that they were looking for easier pickings in the East. Last night, the "Faction Destroyed, Celts" came up. The Burgundians have since stabbed me in the back, so I intend to destroy them too, but at the moment, I have all the territories I need to win except Rome. I am also under heavy attack by the Huns. When I go back on, I think that I will take Rome first, as it will provide finances, then continue playing, and raise up an army to take down Burgundi, and hold off the Huns until I can go get them too.

As for forts, my main use for them is to put one at the center of 3 or 4 towns, and as I train up new units, I put them into the fort so that I do not suddenly take several units out of a city. The people get upset when I do that. The fort is a great "staging area" to build a full stack. Then I send them a few units at a time into the most upgraded city I have nearby, and train them all to the best I can get, and upgrade their armour as well. When I send them on a mission, they are really tough.

I don't take well to being backstabbed, and therefore, I don't do it to others.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

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Originally Posted by Upxl

This works?
Didn't know you could blockade roads.

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No.. I don`t think it does. By placing soldieres in enemy territory, you will cause devastation, but I haven`t heard that you can blokade land trade other than by besieging the city.

It would be nice if you could explain, Razor1952. :balloon2: