No Upgrades?

Have any of you ever tried playing with “no” upgrades (all honour 2)?

I believe that was Yuuki’s model for the specs for the MTW/VI Samurai mod, and basis for our Clan Wars Samurai Competition.

That coupled with a 4 max of any unit “type” (range, sword, spear, cav) would make for a Contest based more on “generalship” rather than “gamesmanship”.

Oh yes, “fantasy” and non Japanese units would be excluded (those not included in the original Shogun).

Not a popular concept I’ll bet. But one that would be a “true” test of military skill.

Thoughts?

Main reason i dont play MTW is becous of the no bonuses,
I always felt like thet were an integral part of the game.

Making you haft to weigh up Which of your men can actualy beat the opponents men,
If any can at all.
It affects the RPS system but to me thats not a bad thing.

A good general. would know his h4 No dachi will die vs his opponents Well trained h6 yari sams.
and there for Must think of a decicive battle plan to even the odds.

of course The opponent will have weaker units some where, Where he will be forced in to the same predicament.

This i feeel is what makes the game so great.

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Originally Posted by Tomi says

Have any of you ever tried playing with “no” upgrades (all honour 2)?

I believe that was Yuuki’s model for the specs for the MTW/VI Samurai mod, and basis for our Clan Wars Samurai Competition.

That coupled with a 4 max of any unit “type” (range, sword, spear, cav) would make for a Contest based more on “generalship” rather than “gamesmanship”.

Oh yes, “fantasy” and non Japanese units would be excluded (those not included in the original Shogun).

Not a popular concept I’ll bet. But one that would be a “true” test of military skill.

Thoughts?

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Guns will route all units very easy at hon2. With the samurai mod morale levels were adjusted so that this wouldn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Guns will route all units very easy at hon2. With the samurai mod morale levels were adjusted so that this wouldn't happen.

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Guess you Really do learn something new every day..

Any way.
Whilst explaining to trish why i didnt like the idea Of no bonuses.

I came up with this explanation,
which i feel Helps describe how i feel about it.

In a game where all unnits are trained to the same standard Not only do you loose realism,
But your reducing the amonts of posible tacticle manoover you HAFT to use in a game,

For instance.
If the hoopnent has Hon 6 Yari sams,
And you have honour 4 no dachi.
To beat the yari sams Decisevly.
you will need to use flanking manoovers. And possibly Attack them from the rear with a second unit.

In a game with no bonuses.
the No dachi can beat the yari sams in a head on attack.

Also In a game with no bonuses. It almost forces people to conform to the same style of game play.
And would mean Most people mimick The best players stratagys.
Again removing Player skill from the game, And almost forcing people to play like a parrot.

This is the same reason I dont play the samurai mod for VI.

Hopefully this explains my stance on the matter Adequatly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Guns will route all units very easy at hon2. With the samurai mod morale levels were adjusted so that this wouldn't happen.

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OK, this is true.

And please understand, I am not trying to be a wise guy here. But as a serious question.

What do you think would happen in real life if 60 men with muskets were to meet up head on with 60 men with edged weapons? And again, even if the edged weapon guys were on horseback?

I believe that they would be forced to withdraw and find a different way to take the gunners down, either by over whelming numbers and/or tactical maneuvers.

Guns were eventually banned in Japan because they upset the hierarchy of their feudal system. When an average Joe was given a firearm, he could take out a highly trained Samurai, unbalancing the centuries of culture and the government of Japan.

Maybe we should ban guns (just kidding).

And again in considering reality. Exactly how much training do you think you would have to give a Yari spearman to enable him to do-in a Samurai? This is like a medieval pikeman against a footknight. “It aint gona happen”! Yet the game allows you to do such pumping up.

The difference again is generalship vs. gamesmanship. Simulation vs. imagination…

Well, the real problem wasn't that a gun unit would rout a h2h unit. But at the morale level all the units were at, 1 unit routing starts a chain rout very fast. I played a few games at 2 or 3k and got my opponents army to rout by routing a cav archer unit. and the 2 cav units he sent to support it.

I do think it requires more skill (less room for error), but you would have to play without guns.

Something just occurred to me. If you use H2 units only then surely you are going to struggle to spend your allocated koku,or are we talking low koku games here?
Low koku games result in auto routs, I cant see an H2 army hanging around when the going gets tough, one out all out!!! and off they run~:wave:
I can see the attraction of the concept of an h2 army in which the general would have to be very careful in the type of army he brought to the battlefield and his use of his army in combat but can't see it working out.
I for one liked the 1.03 stats when playing lower koku games maybe this could be incorporated??


ShinGaiJin




p.s. Hello Mimesaka how are you matey:bow:

Yeah, you have to lower the koku enough so that it isn't feasible to bring all heavy cav and monks. 1.03 no upgrades could work even with guns since they are so much more fragile. I think downgrades should be allowed though.

Doing well, GaiJin ~:wave:

It has become clear to me that there are too many players who don't want a rock, paper, scissors game. STWmod for MTW/VI has a strong rock, paper, scissors type gameplay which means you have to use combined arms. Rather than reduce tactics as is being claimed here, this actually increases tactics because you have to use all types of units, and use them properly. STWmod has the morale adjusted so that units will fight long enough without upgrades. All this entailed was raising the morale 0 and morale 2 units to about morale 4. The morale 8 units were not changed. The fighting time for most matchups is long enough to allow flanking tactics to be performed so you have a chance of winning if you have the weaker unit and supporting units nearby, but short enough that you can't come from very long distances to aid a unit that's in trouble.

Upgrades break the rock, paper, scissors system. That's why STW/MI v1.02 is supposed to be limited to 7K koku. A YS has no business beating a no-dachi frontally. If spears beat swords. there is no need for swords. The YS is for use against cavalry not sword units. In STWmod, there is no need to limit unit types because if you take a lot of one type of unit you will be at a disadvantage against a more balanced army. An unbalanced army will work well if your opponent happens to also take an unbalanced army and your army is composed of many counterunits to his.

That issue with the guns routing H2 units is a problem with the guns in v1.02. They get too many kills per volley. This was fixed in STWmod, and morale 8 units are able to frontally charge guns successfully. The morale level of the melee units in STWmod ranges between 4 and 8 which is enough to provide a pronunced difference in their routing performance. The battle system doesn't really handle values outside this range very well. The other advantage of STWmod is that the MTW/Vi battle engine has no battlefield upgrades which means the performance of a unit throught the battle is consistent. When you know how units are likely to perform at every stage of the battle, you can make more intelligent decisions about how to use them tactically.

Hi Yuuki! I had hoped you’d bring your knowledge and experience to this little get together :smile:

Some very thought provoking responses guys. Thank you all for tuning into this, and bringing more light to the proposition of a straight honour 2 game.

Of course my mission here is to find some kind of a common denominator. A formula if you will, for a Contest. The criteria is dual in nature. On the one hand to find possible Rules that will tighten up the game, and make it a renewed challenge for those who have stopped playing. And on the other, be acceptable to the current players on Shambles server.

Let’s kick it up a notch and make it a 4x4 format.

A limit of 4 honour max.
With Weapon and Armour upgrades.

And 4 max of any troop type, expanded to 6 classifications (infantry range, spear, sword, and cavalry range, spear, sword).

Maybe at 8k?

Would this be livable and challenging at the same time?