Year XXX BC Anachronism

Europa Barbarorum is a stunning achievement even in its beta form and the info that I have gleaned from lurking on the forum makes the future of the Mod look more promising still, but there is one glaring anachronism- the use of the BC/AD nomenclature for the date. Even the Christians didn't start using 'anno Domini' until the 5th century or so and it didn't become universal for a long time ( Portugal in 1422, for example). Certainly the Greeks and Romans were not counting down to the birth of Jesus.

They had their own system(s). It would make the immersion in the history of the period even better if the dates corresponded to the faction that you were playing.

The Greeks/Diadachoi used many different calendars for naming days, months and years but they all would have been at least aware of the Olympiad-
so the Hellenic factions (5 factions at least, 6 if you include Pontus) could use this system of dating. The year 272 BC would have been (I think) "The Year of the 126th Olympiad". Years between the Olympic games could be "The 2nd Year of the 126th Olympiad" etc.

Let's be realistic- there's not enough room where the date is now to say all of that but an acceptable abbreviated form would not be hard to find- 126/2 for
271 BC, 126/3 for 270 BC and so on.

For the Romans, it's pretty easy. They dated by the names of the Consuls of the year in question, and fortunately (thanks to Varro and Livy) we have a full list of the consuls for the entire period of RTW:EB!
Thus the year 272 BC is "The Year of the Second Consulship of Lucius Papirius Cursor and Spurius Carvilius Maximus"

As in the case of the Greeks, there simply isn't enough room for all of that, but maybe an advisor could pop up every four turns and announce the appropriate consuls. And since the Romans also counted up from the legendary foundation of Rome and called it 'Ad Urbi Condita', instead of 272 BC we could have AUC 482 and count up from there. That would be way cool.

Caveat- In fact, the AUC style of dating was probably not popularised until the reign of the Emporer Claudius- but that would be a heck of a lot less anachronistic than dating by the birth of christ!

For the Barbarian factions the situation is more difficult- many of them would probably have used the dating system of the closest superpower insofar as the cared about naming the years at all. Some may have used 'Regnal years', i.e. 'The first year of the reign of King Jimmy (whoever)'. And the Carthaginians are another kettle of fish altogether. The Parthians might have used a Chaldean or Babylonian calendar. All this would have to be looked into. Still, anybody think it's a good idea?


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There is no way we can make diffrent year counting for diffrent factions.
If we could we would.
But its not possible and its not possible to find only one dating system for all faction, so we can stay with BC/AD as well.

It's a good idea and would make the game more realistic obviously but... It would confuse people too much... I would have no idea what year it was ever. :sweatdrop:

The individual method of reckoning years varied greatly amongst the individual factions we have. The Successors, for example, generally dated from the beginning of their founding dynast's reign.

We could date it from the Olympiads, but alas, it makes no sense to use that for other cultures too. The dating should probably just be seen as something that helps the player understand things better since there is no way we can make it something that everyone likes.

All of the above is, of course, true, and I'm sure that there are higher priorities- but, what if (eventually) the advisor popped up and said a (faction specific) year blurb? You know, something like "It is the year 500 AUC in the Consulship of Julius and Caesar..."

If I knew how to do it I would be happy to make that a project. Unfortunately tho' I am handy with computers and have a degree in classics I don't know nuthin' 'bout modding RTW.

And just for the hell of it I'm gonna start collecting some info on the kind of calendars non Greco-Roman factions might have used.

I really like this idea but can see that it won't be possible to do a seperate system for all factions.

However, couldn't we just do the Roman system for everyone. So that we are counting up the years. I know its a minor point but I don't like the feeling of counting down to something. As though your citizens are expecting some great event to occur at the end of it.

Well oudysseos, you'd be happy to know we have discussed this ad naseum since EB was founded ..over 2-3 years ago.

Are we happy with the status quo, no not really..but is there a viable alternative..no.

We wanted to keep to the general theme of EB - To depict all cultures, races, peoples, etc as accurately as possible without the taint of narrow minded / cultural centric outlooks. We seek to give all their own unique feel, ambience. Thus there was also much debate about shared things like currency...which we managed to come to agreement on.

We've kept the BC thing because RTW hard coding doesn't allow multiple time keeping methods and considering that the ancients didn't have a standardised calendar, we'd have to pick one of several ...which goes against the aforementioned theme.

Given that history is retrospective (ie the ancients wouldn't be saying for example.. "Hay tomorrow is the 8th August 121 BC, I wonder how the Arverni King Bituitis will fair against Cnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus and Quintus Fabius Maximus at the battle of Vindalium?" ). Some notable exceptions aside, many ancients would only be recalling a very short period of time based on recent rulers. Obviously, even this is problematic given the dynamic gameplay of RTW.

So the current calendar is a kind of compromise / abstract portal (like the game UI itself) into the world of the ancients. You'll know, for eg that around 216 BC Hannibal made history with his feats on the battlefield, but the ancients would be nonthewiser.

my2bob

Hard coded is hard coded, I guess, and I suspected that this was the case. Still, I'd like to put in for (at a distant future date when all else is finished) the possibility of faction announcements along the lines of the 'This year in history' blurbs that you've got going now, announcing some culture-specific calendar events. The Roman consuls, for example, or the Olympic victors insofar as we know them (there are some records). I know it's not as if y'all don't have enough on your plate already. It's just that (to paraphrase Robert Graves' paraphrase of his muse) your gift to us (this mod) is already so close to perfect that we (with our insane suggestions) cannot help but try to improve it. It's not ingratitude, it's admiration.

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Originally Posted by oudysseos

Hard coded is hard coded, I guess, and I suspected that this was the case. Still, I'd like to put in for (at a distant future date when all else is finished) the possibility of faction announcements along the lines of the 'This year in history' blurbs that you've got going now, announcing some culture-specific calendar events. The Roman consuls, for example, or the Olympic victors insofar as we know them (there are some records). I know it's not as if y'all don't have enough on your plate already. It's just that (to paraphrase Robert Graves' paraphrase of his muse) your gift to us (this mod) is already so close to perfect that we (with our insane suggestions) cannot help but try to improve it. It's not ingratitude, it's admiration.

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Thanks. It's ok, we know mate.

I think we are all like minded on the issue. If at some point in the future we discover some way to improve on the status quo, we'd be more than happy to implement it. We have even contacted CA personally on the issue, but preliminary feedback from them doesn't bode well.

That said, keep the comments, recommendations and constructive criticisms coming.

~:)

my2bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oudysseos

Still, I'd like to put in for (at a distant future date when all else is finished) the possibility of faction announcements along the lines of the 'This year in history' blurbs that you've got going now, announcing some culture-specific calendar events. The Roman consuls, for example, or the Olympic victors insofar as we know them (there are some records).

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The hardest part about these is having somebody write them, I guess. I did the 'this year in history' traits we have in-game now as a last-minute addition. If somebody will write some more that are accurate, I'll convert them into traits and get them in.

Well, I'll stick my two cents worth in and have a go at writing some 'This year in history' blurbs. Rome, The Hellenic factions and Carthage shouldn't be too hard- don't know about the barbarian factions but I'll do some research. CAn you give me a hint as to which txt file the blurbs are? I'll print them all out and stick em up on my wall so I can follow the different culture threads better.

Data\text\export_VnVs.txt

Do a search for "This year in history". If you really want to be adventurous, you can open Data\export_descr_character_traits and search for "GrecoRomanEvents". I used up all the possible levels on that one, so any new one will have to be named GrecoRomanEvents2 or something equally catchy. ~;)

Thanks! I've had a look and will have a go. Ulp. I take back everything I have already said about 'easy changes'. This is actually a huge project- to have a 'This Year in History' for every year for every faction. I'll start with the Roman years.