UK press caving in under Muslim threat

These may not be the best or the worst of times, but we are certainly witnessing an interesting tale of two cities.

In Paris, Charlie Hebdo published a special issue this week about freedom of expression with lots of cartoons including the 12 Danish ones. They were given massive and visible police protection, but knowing CH, they would have published their special issue no matter how much or how little police protection they got.

In London, one paper after the other gives in to the demand of the authorities to keep a lid on the affair. Scotland Yard is warning editors that it can not protect them from Muslim killers, and no editor apparently has the guts to stand up for free speech. Papers are shredded, websites are 'cleaned', journalists dare only refer to the Danish cartoons in links to links to other peoples' links, making them look like naughty juveniles. The Blair government doesn't need any new laws restricting free speech, it seems they have already gone into effect.

Knowing the Brits, I believe this nonsense will not last long. When are we going to see the inevitable backlash, and what form will it take?

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What are they gonna do, fight the Muslims? The Muslims won't mind if that happens. They are not going to backdown from any sort of fight. Stop insulting Islam, stop getting thrashed by Muslims. That's how it works. :2thumbsup:

You say we should kowtow to the barbaric uncivilised will of a few muslims? I can't help but agree with Winston Churchill now...

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Originally Posted by Winston Churchill

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property‹either as a child, a wife, or a concubine‹must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science‹the science against which it had vainly struggled‹the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.

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The British press doesn't need to insult Muslims to make them look bad.

They did it themselves last weekend.

What is really unsettling is although Churchill wrote that many years ago, nothing has appeaciably altered since then... :no:

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Navaros

What are they gonna do, fight the Muslims?

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No, just re-affirm the right to free expression. Muslims all over the world are fighting each other, trampling their onw kids and torching their own future. No need to give them a helping hand, is there?

Churchill was also a very biased observer, and instrumental in the birth of just about the single most bitter grudge the Islamic world bears. Stuff him.

I believe one student newspaper published them.
The editor lost their position and all but a miniscule number of copies were taken out of circulation.

Nations should be governed by grand, lofty ideas, not by shopkeepers.

All this for cartoons? Seems a bit over the top espacilly considering the goverment is now limiting what you can say. Why do we try to bend over baclwards for these people? We have to obey there laws and coustoms when we go over there or live yet its only a one way street. This is how the fanatics are going to win. By being able to inhibit the wests laws and us making them around that. Sad really

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

No, just re-affirm the right to free expression.

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I wouldn't say that the newpaper's right to freedom of expression is being threatened. If they want to publish the cartoons, they can. But I think they're just being sensible, and realising that these cartoons would upset a large amount of people in Britain without bringing any real benefit to anyone else. They can see that if they publish the cartoons, it would be detrimental to the country overall, and so they don't.

Just because I have the right to insult anyone I like under freedom of speech, doesn't mean that it is a good thing to do, and I most certainly have to do it to show that I have freedom of speech.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Churchill was also a very biased observer, and instrumental in the birth of just about the single most bitter grudge the Islamic world bears. Stuff him.

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Yes the bastard refused to kowtow to Herr Schickelgruber and the hoards of darkness known as the National Socialists. For over a year the UK stood alone against the Nazis. Despite repeated attempts by Hitler and his henchmen to bomb and strafe the UK into submission they failed. All down to bloody Winston, what a prat. Yes indeed stuff him. Still, one has to wonder what sort of world we would live in now because of this idiot. :no:

As for the UK papers getting silenced, why am I not surprised when we have the most illiberal, controlling governments that I can remember. :shame: :wall:

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

No, just re-affirm the right to free expression.

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Every time someone gets the "bright idea" to "re-affirm the right to free expression" by desecrating Islam, then Mulims are going to re-affirm their right to make sure that was a regretable decision. :2thumbsup:

But muslims don't have the right to make sure that it was a regretable decision without illegal activities (unless the person reaffirming free expression is a product exporter to the Middle East, which is unlikely...)

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Yes the bastard refused to kowtow to Herr Schickelgruber and the hoards of darkness known as the National Socialists. For over a year the UK stood alone against the Nazis. Despite repeated attempts by Hitler and his henchmen to bomb and strafe the UK into submission they failed. All down to bloody Winston, what a prat. Yes indeed stuff him. Still, one has to wonder what sort of world we would live in now because of this idiot. :no:

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I've seen it observed opposing Hitler was about the sole correct political decision he made in few decades.
:inquisitive:
Still, fine job mixing such utterly unrelated topics together. Sheer analytical brilliance.

Oh yeah, by what I've read ole Winston was not only a racist and imperialist of the fine old Age of Empire tradition, but also a pro-zionist. That's some objective commentator on Islam...

Not that different. Nazis=new dark age. Islamists=continued dark age.

I never said ol' Winnie was perfect, but he did see the threat from the III Reich long before anyone else did.

We could do with a few more politicians like him. Instead we get pathetic lilly-livered spineless mouthpieces, too frightened to speak out against tyranny. I make no bones about it, it is tyranny.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Oh yeah, by what I've read ole Winston was not only a racist and imperialist of the fine old Age of Empire tradition, but also a pro-zionist. That's some objective commentator on Islam...

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Ahem, Churchill was not a racist. He believed that the races could not achieve immediate equality due to the system and people, but he believed the races to be equal. As for zionism, I don't see what that has to do with the price of cheese -- as a matter of fact, upon researching this particular little ditty I found that the Quran says God gave the Promised Land to the Jews... So perhaps if those fundamentalist muslims noticed this they might also be zionists...

You mean like this bit from the Q'ran?

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[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

[2.78] And there arc among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do conjecture

[2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim(Abraham) and Ismail(Ismael) and Ishaq(Izaac) and Yaqoub(Jacob) and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa(Moses) and Isa(Jesu), and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit

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Is that what you alluded to?

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Not that different. Nazis=new dark age. Islamists=continued dark age.

I never said ol' Winnie was perfect, but he did see the threat from the III Reich long before anyone else did.

We could do with a few more politicians like him. Instead we get pathetic lilly-livered spineless mouthpieces, too frightened to speak out against tyranny. I make no bones about it, it is tyranny.

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Still doesn't make him a terribly good source for fair commentary on Islam, now does it ?

Indeed, the quote Duke posted alone is downright dripping with outright Imperialist cultural particularism and prejudices. And then we have people agreeing with that pungent Victorian drivel ?

:rtwno:
Lions.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

You mean like this bit from the Q'ran?



Is that what you alluded to?

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Nno, although that first verse is interesting...

It was this:

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Originally Posted by The Quran

5.20. Remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.

5.21. "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin."

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and later...

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Originally Posted by The Quran

17.101. To Moses We did give Nine Clear Sings: As the Children of Israel: when he came to them, Pharaoh said to him: "O Moses! I consider thee, indeed, to have been worked upon by sorcery!

17.102. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"

17.103. So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him.

17.104. And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.

17.105. We sent down the (Qur'an) in Truth, and in Truth has it descended: and We sent thee but to give Glad Tidings and to warn (sinners).

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I seem to recall the Qu'ran also designates the non-Muslim world as the "Land Of War," and encourages aggressive spread of the faith if possible. So if you want to be consistent about it...

But then again I always found quoting scriptures for point to be rather silly.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

I seem to recall the Qu'ran also designates the non-Muslim world as the "Land Of War," and encourages aggressive spread of the faith if possible. So if you want to be consistent about it...

But then again I always found quoting scriptures for point to be rather silly.

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Trying to have a debate about freedom of speech as opposed to religious dogma without investigating said religion would be sillier.

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Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm

But muslims don't have the right to make sure that it was a regretable decision without illegal activities

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Says who? The laws of evil secularist men?

The Muslims do not care about such laws, nor should they. That's what's so great, their faith & conviction is so strong that no matter who or how many tell them "no, that's bad, you're wrong, you can't do that!", they are just gonna keep on keepin' on. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Says who? The laws of evil secularist men?

The Muslims do not care about such laws, nor should they. That's what's so great, their faith & conviction is so strong that no matter who or how many tell them "no, that's bad, you're wrong, you can't do that!", they are just gonna keep on keepin' on. :2thumbsup:

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Well, you certainly are not endearing yourself or your fellow muslims to the West. If all muslims had this approach I'm sure there would be some sort of restrictions on them...

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Says who? The laws of evil secularist men?

The Muslims do not care about such laws, nor should they. That's what's so great, their faith & conviction is so strong that no matter who or how many tell them "no, that's bad, you're wrong, you can't do that!", they are just gonna keep on keepin' on. :2thumbsup:

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Huh? I think youre way off base. Killing and kidnaping over a cartoon is pretty stupid no matter how bad it is. These people dont listen to reason they dont think they are falsey led like blind sheep to "the great satan" to fight him. These people arent noble defenders of there religon there bigots who are to jealous to stupid and to blind to use any kind of reason

I always think that the problem with religious debate is the problem with the texts themselves.

Who chose the final books to go in the Bible for example. There were many more available, so who got the final cut? And seeing as how this was done by a man, how do we differentiate between the ones in the bible, and those that hapen to be written at the same time?

I imagine that the same can be said of Islamic scriptures. Someone has decided which ones are more worthy of holiness than others.

Very interesting...

~:smoking:

The early rulers of the Caliphate not too long after the Prophet passed away to be exact, far as I know.

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Trying to have a debate about freedom of speech as opposed to religious dogma without investigating said religion would be sillier.

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Not really - the dogma loses out by default, right ?

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Originally Posted by strike for the south

Huh? I think youre way off base. Killing and kidnaping over a cartoon is pretty stupid no matter how bad it is. These people dont listen to reason they dont think they are falsey led like blind sheep to "the great satan" to fight him. These people arent noble defenders of there religon there bigots who are to jealous to stupid and to blind to use any kind of reason

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There is nothing at all unreasonable about standing up for one's faith & convictions at any cost. That is what Muslims do. That is indeed noble. Making and publishing disgusting cartoons for no legitimate reason, that is what is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Navaros

Says who? The laws of evil secularist men?

The Muslims do not care about such laws, nor should they. That's what's so great, their faith & conviction is so strong that no matter who or how many tell them "no, that's bad, you're wrong, you can't do that!", they are just gonna keep on keepin' on. :2thumbsup:

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Yeah, until secularized people (who are hopefully still a large majority in Europe) think that the small percentage of muslim extremists are annoying as hell, and elect some kind of right-wing Hitler wannabe that will decide to kill/deport all of them. Seeing how the extreme right is growing through the western world, how many people seem to care little about their rights and democracy, and how people are afraid of the futur, it doesn't sound that unbelievable. Give it a few more year, and I bet the next time muslims manifest in Europe, some Mosques will be burnt to the ground.

:2thumbsup: inded

A comparision I heard at the time: "Hundreds die in the bomb attacks in Spain, and the local Muslims are left in peace. One troublemaking jerk gets knifed in the Netherlands, and mosques burn. Makes you wonder if the Dutch had some issues."