US Government Fighting For Human Rights

Congress grills internet bosses on China policies

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As representatives from Google, Yahoo, Cisco Systems and Microsoft looked on, lawmakers from both political parties delivered withering attacks and called for oversight on dealings with China.

"Your abhorrent activities in China are a disgrace. I simply do not understand how your corporate leadership sleeps at night," said Rep. Tom Lantos, the ranking Democrat on a House International Relations subcommittee on human rights. Lantos' California district includes the high-tech empire of Silicon Valley.

The Republican chairman of the subcommittee, Chris Smith of New Jersey, held the hearing to ask the companies about their procedures in China and demands from the Chinese government.

Last week, Paris-based Reporters Without Borders, an advocacy group for journalists, said Yahoo provided electronic records to Chinese authorities that led to an eight-year prison sentence for writer Li Zhi in 2003.

In September, Yahoo was accused of helping Chinese authorities identify Shi Tao, who was accused of leaking state secrets abroad and was sentenced last April to 10 years in prison.

Google came under fire last month for bowing to Chinese pressure to block politically sensitive terms on its new Chinese site. Microsoft has also angered human rights activists by shutting down the blog of a critic of the Beijing government.

Smith used a laptop to show how a search for "Tiananmen Square" on http://www.google.com turned up images of tanks and carnage from the 1989 army killings while entering the same term in the new Chinese site led to pictures of smiling tourists.

Smith said he planned to introduce a bill this week to formalise the goals of a new State Department task force to help American technology companies protect freedom of expression in countries that censor online content.

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I will be very interested to see this bill get passed. Then to see how it gets enforced...

how about doing something about this?

free internet in china is fine and dandy....and a good objective......but maybe starting with It´s own living room instead of cleaning up the neighbours yard would be a better use of US government attention.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

free internet in china is fine and dandy....and a good objective......but maybe starting with It´s own living room instead of cleaning up the neighbours yard would be a better use of US government attention.

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Seconded. With so many internal problems, some countries still have the face to do this kind of things.
I don't know much of International Law, but for what I know that kind of bill is useless it will never be enforceable.

Third, motion carried and it extends to every facet of governemnt. Get the drunks and homeless off you're own streets, then interfear with Africa.

*smells cold war in the air.

It's not like the entire US government is doing nothing but legislate in China's direction. If every country had to "get the drunks and homeless off [their] own streets" then no international effort would ever be mounted. No diplomacy, nothing.

And I think it highlights Google's hypocracy. Google refused the US government something about search results and is all pro-freedom and then what do they do? "Sure, China, you can censor our searches! Long live the Peoples' Republic, comrade!"

And props to Chris Smith (of NJ!). He sounds like a decent guy, beyond just this; he has the reputation (and actions to back it up, I think) of being a human rights supporter in general.

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Originally Posted by Ronin

how about doing something about this?

free internet in china is fine and dandy....and a good objective......but maybe starting with It´s own living room instead of cleaning up the neighbours yard would be a better use of US government attention.

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Yes, but Google, Yahoo, Cisco Systems and Microsoft are American companies. :book:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Yes, but Google, Yahoo, Cisco Systems and Microsoft are American companies. :book:

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Still that doesn't says anything Louis. Somebody has to find that this kinf of companies (internet companies) are ruled in a different way that other companies, if not then they're subject, in their operations, to the law of the country in wich they're operating, no law enforcement is possible. Now if in this case an exception is made, I don't know.
However...

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Smith said he planned to introduce a bill this week to formalise the goals of a new State Department task force to help American technology companies protect freedom of expression in countries that censor online content.

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If this means what I believe it means, then there's no problem, but in my opinion it continues to be useless, China will not negociate when there's issues concerning the stability of the government.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

And I think it highlights Google's hypocracy. Google refused the US government something about search results and is all pro-freedom and then what do they do? "Sure, China, you can censor our searches! Long live the Peoples' Republic, comrade!"

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When in Rome, do as the Romans. Or stay out and get no business.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

And I think it highlights Google's hypocracy. Google refused the US government something about search results and is all pro-freedom and then what do they do? "Sure, China, you can censor our searches! Long live the Peoples' Republic, comrade!"

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Hypocrisy. Why does everyone spell it as if it were a system of government?!

Anyway, those aren't even close to the same issue - Censorship vs Spying.

Don't we have anything better to spend our tax dollars on? I mean, ya its a noble idea and all, but if the people of China really wanted things to change, it would have awhile ago. I can think of a few kids with Cancer who don't give a **** about Google or China, and that our tax money could be used towards oh, lets say, giving them proper treatment and medication.

What a waste.

"Kids with Cancer" Laudable and all, but what type and what prognosis? What is the "cost to treat" of the medication, and what is the 5 year survival rate - in essence the "numbers to treat"??

Or was this just a random "good cause" thrown in there??

China is changing, and although I agree with many that stated that America has enough problems (including human rights abuses of its own) that to go after others is either self denial or is trying to focus attention on others.

Drunks / homeless on streets. There will always be some - I've met a few who prefer it to other accommodation that is offered. I think America could do more, but to not aid Africa because you've got wasters at home is IMO not a good argument.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Yes, but Google, Yahoo, Cisco Systems and Microsoft are American companies. :book:

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Exactly! And they are certainly flirting with censorship and other oppressive practices in Third or Second World countries. Good to see the U.S. Congress making a stand on this issue. Freedom in China or Africa is in the interest of Chinese and Africans. All those who plead otherwise are racists.

I think the term "Racists" is not entirely applicable, but I see what you mean. "Self serving, blinkered hippocrates" would be my choice... :2thumbsup:

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I think the term "Racists" is not entirely applicable, but I see what you mean. "Self serving, blinkered hippocrates" would be my choice... :2thumbsup:

~:smoking:

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Yes Sir, anyone who pleads that freedom is not in the interest of Aficans or Chinese is a racist in my book. Of course opinions differ widely on the way in which freedom can and should be promoted in China or Africa. Nothing racist about that. Though I have my doubts about the notion that American Congressmen and companies have something better to do than promote freedom in China and Africa. Let me just say that they could do a lot worse, if only by letting this whole issue slip by unnoticed.

It's nit-picking, but as neither Africa or China comprise one race apiece, and there are many of the races within those two that are found elsewhere it is to me clear that these two areas are defined by geographic borders rather than racial ones.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

I think the term "Racists" is not entirely applicable, but I see what you mean. "Self serving, blinkered hippocrates" would be my choice...

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Greek...doctors?

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Originally Posted by GoreBag

Greek...doctors?

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Oooo... check out Mr Pedant :2thumbsup:

He has a fair point though. It annoys me as well.

Back to the subject: International corporations in craven, unethical, money-grubbing activities shock! Nice to see someone in government take a critical interest in it though, no matter how toothless.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Exactly! And they are certainly flirting with censorship and other oppressive practices in Third or Second World countries. Good to see the U.S. Congress making a stand on this issue. Freedom in China or Africa is in the interest of Chinese and Africans. All those who plead otherwise are racists.

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How is this more than a noble, but idealist conduct?

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

How is this more than a noble, but idealist conduct?

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Ideals help change the world. I have great personal freedom, a decent salary, a yearly vacation, good health care and a lot of other things I wouldn't have had if it were not for a lengthy and finally victorious struggle for certain political and social ideals.

The companies will behave better if they know they are being watched. And for those struggling for freedom in China and parts of Africa it is a gesture of support.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

Ideals help change the world. I have great personal freedom, a decent salary, a yearly vacation, good health care and a lot of other things I wouldn't have had if it were not for a lengthy and finally victorious struggle for certain political and social ideals.

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Agreed.

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The companies will behave better if they know they are being watched. And for those struggling for freedom in China and parts of Africa it is a gesture of support.

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This is what I don't get. How is that this will help? The problem is that the government wants certain content banned, the companie operating under this unjust law, must, at least in principle, obey this law. I don't see how an outsider administration could help freedom of speech in another country.

Google could have had done the noble thing and refused to comply with China's demands. Admittedly, they probably would have lost business in China (somehow - I'm not sure) but it would have been the right thing to do.

And legislation could be passed to make US companies not buckle under.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

I don't see how an outsider administration could help freedom of speech in another country.

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For instance by not contributing to Chinese censorship, spying on citizens (the article gives some disturbing examples) or political selection of content. The companies couldn't give a damn of course, but there is always the threat that the U.S. government will, in the near future, give them a stark choice: either stop collaborating with the Chinese censors or we will not do business with you anymore.

The Republican chairman of the subcommittee, Chris Smith, will introduce a bill to establish a State Department task force to help American technology companies protect freedom of expression in countries that censor online content. 'The bill will include export controls on certain types of hardware and software and prohibit putting e-mail servers in countries that lack US-style due process laws, Smith said. "If a company allows itself - in its filtering capability - to filter terms such as 'democracy' and 'religious freedom,' they will be in violation of US law," Smith told Reuters regarding the proposed legislation, which refers to 14 authoritarian countries including China.' Well there you have it.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

For instance by not contributing to Chinese censorship, spying on citizens (the article gives some disturbing examples) or political selection of content. The companies couldn't give a damn of course, but there is always the threat that the U.S. government will, in the near future, give them a stark choice: either stop collaborating with the Chinese censors or we will not do business with you anymore.

The Republican chairman of the subcommittee, Chris Smith, will introduce a bill to establish a State Department task force to help American technology companies protect freedom of expression in countries that censor online content. 'The bill will include export controls on certain types of hardware and software and prohibit putting e-mail servers in countries that lack US-style due process laws, Smith said. "If a company allows itself - in its filtering capability - to filter terms such as 'democracy' and 'religious freedom,' they will be in violation of US law," Smith told Reuters regarding the proposed legislation, which refers to 14 authoritarian countries including China.' Well there you have it.

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Interesting. Perhaps the same administration is performing a filtering of the word "justice" in the same process? How is that a company must adjust to the moral standard supplied by the government under the menace of sanction? What I do with my property shouldn't concern the rest of the people, specially those outside the control of the State. This is pure political correctness, and as always political correctness is an ideal, and it always causes problems were it's introduced. This conception of universal moral values could carry justice problems when dealing with reality, so a company who wants to do business in place A, where activity A1 is banned, is object of the sanctions of the State by exercising his primary purpose by surrendering to the presures of law of such territory. For instance where the people might have the information delivered and supplied regularily, though a part of it is biased or erased, now they've have no information at all, since this companies will be forced to chose between clients. I really can't see the benefits on this.

Yanks in general, and Republicans in particular, are very split on thinking over China.

For all it's forays into capitalism, at least of late, China is brutally repressive and dominated by the will of a politburo. Partial birth abortions are state policy, freedom of speech is restricted, many of the "capitalist" ventures in the country are direct subsidiaries of their military, etc.

Some feel that we should take a moral stance, refusing trade and marginalizing China to the fullest extent we can, unless and until they make strides in improving human rights etc.

Others argue that trade and capitalism will be the tools that force China to open up and to adhere to more broadly accepted standards of human rights.

Amnesty International hates us both, viewing Lichtenstein as morally better than both of us.

Ah....hummmm! Actually there are already bloggers and 'hosts' doing something about this, or haven't you been paying attention? Seems a few inventive sorts have spiked and circumvented the China-syndrom of absolute control of their peoples minds (shame our government isn't supplementing them ... their doing it for free .... sorta, they do run ads). These geeks have created open web-sites that allow the Chinese with the proper codes to get into their sites and access the real world web.

Amazing? Well, maybe ... if it is real and not a propaganda stunt. I can't find a way into one of them (but, I be computer limited ... er, where's the porn?).

It is the "WEB" - there are no limits that can not be breached. There is nothing that can be limited, because someone will find a way or method to circumvent them.

It is after all the new democracy - of the net, for the net, and screw anyone trying to conceal the truth. :balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Others argue that trade and capitalism will be the tools that force China to open up and to adhere to more broadly accepted standards of human rights.

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I believe the same, and I also believe that this demands from the administration are unreasonable.

as the saying goes "Rome wasn't built in a day".

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

as the saying goes "Rome wasn't built in a day".

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But it had to be built. When to start but now?

I guess censorship in those totalitarian countries were always "acceptable" to the US politically if not morally, but the spying thing goes way too far. Google was helping the damn government imprison dissenters, after all. That is absolutely not cool. Google/Yahoo are American companies, not sub-sections of the Chinese Cyber Wars Deparment (if they have one.) It's good they at least raise some public awareness about it through some probably rather impractical bills.

It is a sad day that such a slave state is a superpower in the world and the culture which it had tried to destroy and now abuse as a tool was such a wonderfully rich and impressive one. I long to see the day China falls apart. It always annoy me to see those "made in China" marks in seemingly everything and I don't have other choices of merchandise than these very low-wage factory productions, knowing that I support it by buying them.