Getting tiny factions off the ground

I have been playing XL mod, BKB's mod as well as FOR mod for some time now and they have all given a real boost to the vanilla MTW: VI game play for me. I think the additional factions and different types of exotic units that all of these mods bring are real pluses for them.

But I find that the factions that are the most intriguing, have the most interesting units, etc. tend to be factions with only one or two provinces to start. I always have problems getting tiny factions moving along fast enough to keep my interest in the campaign. They are either surrounded by larger neighbors, are in dirt poor areas and or have no exportable products for shipping so you can't even try to become an economic power house.

Because of the slow growth necessary to cultivate these tiny factions, I tend to go ahead and play Byzantium, Turks, Egyptians, Almonds,English, HRE or some other faction that has enough existing provinces to be able to start the game moving fast enough to keep my interest. Seems if they don't have at least 5 provinces to start it is almost impossible to get them moving at a reasonable pace for me.

I was hoping to get some advise, strategies, etc. from the rest of you on how you kick start small factions to get the game moving and keep your interest.

Find the nearby provinces you will need and take them with your starting force. You do not need to keep them, just make sure they go to rebels, not loyalistst. If you can do that, and take them one by one for keeps, capturing the rebels for ransom it should help a little with the cash flow.

If you are still poor get an army together and form a one way raiding party. Hit the most advanced provinces possible and try to follow a king through his lands. This should give you enough money to actually begin building mines, traders, ships, and farms. Better advice will be from others, but you might tell us which small faction you want to start because some people have detailed start-up plans for most any faction.

mfberg

Well, I'm in the middle of an XL campaign as the Portuguese in Early. On my third try I was able to get them off the ground. The key is in the initial phase. Being aggressive early is a must. The Portuguese start with only Portucale, which is an average province with two tradeable goods. If you wait too long the Almohads and Spanish (Castile-Leonese) will become too strong. The very first turn I took Leon then defended against a Spanish attack. On turn four I took Castile and the Spanish were annihilated.

I then bribed El Cid and took Valencia. I now had some rich provinces and was able to fend off an Almohad invasion. I now own all of Iberia and all the way up to Egypt. I also have several small clusters of provinces around the map disconnected from my main lands.

The same tactic works for the Welsh in VI. I took out Mercia completely in the first ten turns. For those factions starting with one poor province it is usually a good strategy to take another province right away with your starting force.

A faction that I find very challenging to get going is the Serbs in Early. You can't really take any provinces immediately right from the start and you are surrounded by the Hungarians and Byzantines, two factions you don't want to mess with. Starting a war with the rich, powerful Byzantines is not a good idea with a poor faction and the Hungarians have an archer-rich army at the beginning with lots of hilly territory to defend with.

As with any TW game, the most challenging part of the game is the initial phases. This is also arguably the most important part of the game because of you wait too long then it will be almost impossible to expand if you are a one-province faction but if you go too quickly and fail then it will be extremely difficult to bounce back.

As mfberg said, it would probably help if you could tell us which faction you're playing with (or thinking of trying out). Aside from agreeing with my fellow compatriates here that early and agressive expansion is usually a must for small factions, specific strategies really vary on which nation you are.

Which faction or factions interests you in particular? Scotland, Lithiuania, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Ireland, Sicily, Armenia, etc.....it really all depends on which one(s) you're talking about. If you could be a little more specific, hlawrenc, we can probably help you more than just giving out vague advice. ~:)

I just thought I'd add that I agree with all over the above and that bribing a rebel very early on can be an excellent move.

In my current game as the scots (high XL Expert) I bribed the rebels in norway on turn one before spending anything on upgrades or troops. On the third or fourth turn I invaded Northumbria (english) after they started a war with the french.

I made peace two turns later. Since then I've invested heavily in ships to boost trade. I now have a ship in each sea square and have a treasury of over 90,000.

I have only about 8 provinces but I've avoided major wars by taking rebel lands and building them up quickly. I've now started to build a major army and the english are my next target.

Although the hardest to play, the tiny factions are also the most exciting and interesting to play, with the highest risk of failure. I think the method depends a lot on who is around them. For example, my first successful experience as the Aragonese I went straight to the offensive and took out Spain within the first few turns, then used the same strategy I would as the Spanish.

As the Armenians, however, I was surrounded by three factions each too powerful for me to take on alone. Instead I bided my time, teched up my units, and started a savings account, and when they went to war with each other I'd join in and snatch a province or two, then build up some more and wait for my next opportunity. There were some very hairy moments and it took a long time for me to feel secure in my troops and ability to defend myself, but it was a great ride.

Each faction is different, though in most cases the early strike is probably your best bet. Don't wait for your economic disadvantage to get too magnified.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

As the Armenians, however, I was surrounded by three factions each too powerful for me to take on alone. Instead I bided my time, teched up my units, and started a savings account, and when they went to war with each other I'd join in and snatch a province or two, then build up some more and wait for my next opportunity. There were some very hairy moments and it took a long time for me to feel secure in my troops and ability to defend myself, but it was a great ride.

Ajax

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I disagree with this. When playing Armenia in Early I went on a ransom war against the Egyptians. It took a while to get enough units built to where I thought I could stand a decent chance I attacked as soon as I could. Having no trade resources I built up some low level farms and that nice 100 man strong AP infantry.

I missed the Sultan but I was able to ransom back a large number of troops. The extra income from the southern providences was nice but I couldn't hold them easily early on. Thankfully the Turks held off attacking until I had wrested the momentum from the Egyptians. The Turks didn't offer much of a challenge as the Byzantines were at war with them as well.

You have to be mindful of what land you take. Always target the most profitable and only build defenses until you dominate the region. After the Turk menace was over I conquered Egypt and took on the Elmos. The fighting in West Africa was interesting because of the light, aggressively oriented armies I faced. Quite often when I attacked I was on the defense. This worked out quite well and the Naphtha crews earned their pay.

I knew victory was assured after I conquered Morocco and was recognized as the faction with the highest income. This all took a while and I wanted for the horde to show up before I took on Byzantium. They had already expanded into the steps and therefore war was imminent. Now the de jure Eastern Roman Empire is the de facto Holy Roman Empire and they're being squeezed into England.

I've managed to groom my heirs quite nicely and have many good generals. For some reason the green_generals command doesn't seem to be working since I upgraded to XP.

I've played with the Irish too but the Armenians were the best: Sandwiched between three superpowers, low on cash and short on luck. The best thing I like about them is that they have a catholic navy.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I disagree with this. When playing Armenia in Early I went on a ransom war against the Egyptians. It took a while to get enough units built to where I thought I could stand a decent chance I attacked as soon as I could. Having no trade resources I built up some low level farms and that nice 100 man strong AP infantry.

I've played with the Irish too but the Armenians were the best: Sandwiched between three superpowers, low on cash and short on luck. The best thing I like about them is that they have a catholic navy.

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I agree the Armenians are interesting especially their infantry, Armenian Heavy Cav, good archers. Curious in your very early years did you go ahead and take Georgia from the rebels while watching the Turks and Byzantines go at it? Access to nomad archers, Alan Lt Cav, and Steepe hvy cav are appealing as well in BKB mod. Will have to try the "chase the sultan" tactic and hope that the Turks leave me alone. I know recently in an aborted Turk campaign I made the mistake of hitting the Armenians very early in the game (like in the first 3 moves) to get them out of my backyard before I went after the Byzantines and they handed me my head on a platter! Have a lot of respect for their army just hate their location. Will have to give that at try, thanks

It's been a while but I remember having a fun time with the Crusader States on High (XL mod). IIRC there's no infrastructure when you start and you have to build a couple of buildings before you can even train any troops. I seem to remember having to balance hiring mercenaries, building economic infrastucture, building military buildings and training units while fighting off the Egyptians (who attack early).
A nice challenge and lots of fun.

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Originally Posted by hlawrenc

I agree the Armenians are interesting especially their infantry, Armenian Heavy Cav, good archers. Curious in your very early years did you go ahead and take Georgia from the rebels while watching the Turks and Byzantines go at it? Access to nomad archers, Alan Lt Cav, and Steepe hvy cav are appealing as well in BKB mod. Will have to try the "chase the sultan" tactic and hope that the Turks leave me alone. I know recently in an aborted Turk campaign I made the mistake of hitting the Armenians very early in the game (like in the first 3 moves) to get them out of my backyard before I went after the Byzantines and they handed me my head on a platter! Have a lot of respect for their army just hate their location. Will have to give that at try, thanks

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I was using XL so I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.

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It's been a while but I remember having a fun time with the Crusader States on High (XL mod).

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I'll have to try out these guys.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I was using XL so I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.

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You'll find the Armenians in XL surrounded by the Byzantines and Turks in the Levant. They're a one province 'tiny' faction.

I've seen both the Aragon and Pope go nuts and conquer Europe in other people's games.

I've seen the emergent Swiss gut the HRE from the inside and go on a rampage. Nice.

[QUOTE=Vladimir]I was using XL so I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.



My mistake, in BKB Armenians hold Armenia so they are next door to Georgia, but have Turks between them and the Egyptians at least initially, forgot that in XL they are in lesser Armenia to start and next to the Egyptians so my question about hitting Georgia would not initally work in XL, but I see how you can beat up on the Egyptians in XL off the bat.

In BKB they have Byz and Turks surrounding them except for Georgia which is rebel and in BKB Georgia can raise Alan Mercs, Steepe Heavy Cav as well as nomad archers after some build up and because the Armenians are in Armenia they are landlocked. They are definitely a faction that have interesting potential in BKB as well, but their start position combined with the factions surrounding them make them difficult at least for me to get off the ground.

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Originally Posted by Roark

I've seen the emergent Swiss gut the HRE from the inside and go on a rampage. Nice.

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That's one I'm still waiting for. I've tried holding my breath but it hasn't helped. :sad:

Ajax

I've had quite a nice game as the teutonic order (XL; High). they start out in livonia which is nicely upgraded but also dirt poor...you're neighbouring two one-province factions which are richer than you and which are rather unassailable at the beginning. esp the lithuanians turned out to be extremely aggressive but soon faced war with all bordering factions so they were a mere straw fire.
the main problem is that there are no attractive territories in your immediate grasp. estonia is unruly and even poorer than livonia, even though it provides interesting auxilia cav; novgorod is too well defended most of the time (those damn boyars!) and the lithuanians spawn 6- and 7-star-princes like hell....
another issue I noticed is that the princes' quality seems to depend on the king's influence among other things. since this rating is likely to be rather low most of the times, it is an ansolute priority to train at least one unit every turn in order to get those generals appearing at certain dates. once I read them all somewhere for vanilla MTW but haven't found a list for XL since....is there any?
In the end I found conquering Scandinavia the most satisfying option, also a difficult one though. it provides a better strategic position against the horde (well, a little haven at least provided you rule the seas), you'll have to deal with the swedes and the danish, though, which isn't likely to improve your reputation with the pope. once scandinavia is conquered and the baltic sea is under control, get the sea trade going. you won't have any cash otherwise, and even though the order units are among the best in the game, the horde will prove to be a respectable challenge to them. I played rather defensively so when the mongols finally reached me in ~1270 (they must have loitered quite a while) I just owned the provinces surrounding the baltic sea and was almost overthrown by their onslaught when they hit me in lithuania and novgorod. you can only win so many battles when outnumbered 4:1....I held them off (that forest on the lithuania battle map must be filled to the brim with corpses by now) but was deeply in the red afterwards thanks to some emergency bribes.....try them, it's tough but it's fun. having teutonic knights for family cavalry is simply GREAT!

So is it possible to play as Armenia or not?

Armenia is not represented as a faction in the vanilla game. You can play as Armenia if you download the XL-mod or Supermod. Not sure about Medmod.

Ajax

I just started playng XL a couple days ago, I really like it. Started a game as Bohemia (ancestral interest) and it seems like all you have to do there is mark time until some neighbor comes under pressure then join the gangbang. The HRE cracked up after French attacks and an excom, so I grabbed two provinces, then the French were gutted by the Spanish and English, so I grabbed two more, then the Danes fell apart (three more), then I was strong enough to attack Hungary (two more). Now it's 1221 and I have an HRE-sized empire.

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Originally Posted by Horatius

So is it possible to play as Armenia or not?

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Read the above.

I have no idea how to get Ireland off the ground in early, since they have no ships at the start, although they can build one, and in normal the only rebels nearby (Wales) are wayyyy too expensive (over 4000, and rising each time). Any tips in early?

This is using the XL mod.

Make a ship and spend all your money on that bribe? If you want you could go into the statpos file and give ireland more income. You could make them trade wool and fish if they don't already.

For the curious I've seen denmark get pretty big on its own on rare occassions. Check this out https://photobucket.com/albums/b173/...eofdenmark.jpg
They had a powerful navy too. They did have prussia earlier but they probably would've gotten it back I imagine. If I remember right they took more of spain, muscovy and possibly flanders (again) too. This was actually a game I didn't play all the way through because I was allied with Denmark at the time and said.. "uhg, that could get messy"

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Make a ship and spend all your money on that bribe? If you want you could go into the statpos file and give ireland more income. You could make them trade wool and fish if they don't already.

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Thanks, but I was hoping for some tips without using cheats, I am aware of the codes available. I tried trading, but the cost of the ships eats up about 90% of the profits (in XL mod).

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For the curious I've seen denmark get pretty big on its own on rare occassions.

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In the XL mod, Denmark often gets to be a powerful computer player. In my current campaign using the Cumans, the England/Denmark alliance rules most of western Europe and all of northern Europe. Denmark is not the junior partner in this alliance, having killed the Norwegians, Swedes, HRE, and Novogrod by themselves, and are currently pushing the Kiev Rus further south.

The only hope for the Irish is to get the hell out of Ireland! Invade/bribe Wales as soon as possible and use your special units wisely. I've always had problems using their berserker unit well as I normally rely on cavalry but galloglasses (sp?) and that 100 man heavy throwing spear are superb!

I am trying that now, invaded Wales turn 3, invaded England a few turns later, and it is now a contest to see if I can survive the English counter-attack (I have Mercia and Wessex). They have a (much) larger army, but I hope that they cannot strip the continent too much.

I remember Bretwalda posted an in-depth thread on a successful attempt (I believe following numerous failures) as the Irish. Perhaps you could find it in the archive?

Ajax

Thanks again for the information. I did try some of the same strategy as Bretwalda, and the heavy javelin unit (Bonnachts) are very effective, I wish I had built more. It will remain to be seen if I can conquer/keep England, or go down in a blaze of glory, but at least I have a start.

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

I remember Bretwalda posted an in-depth thread on a successful attempt (I believe following numerous failures) as the Irish. Perhaps you could find it in the archive?

Ajax

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This is the one in case someone is interested. Irish rock. :wink:

Next up: Armenians!