When faced with a larger attacking force...

Okay, so there I was happily besieging a town with a small but adequate force when out of the blue a larger force comes up and counter-attacks me.

I set my forces up as defensive as I could, making them to commit and to come on to me, but my question is what tactical options do you have when faced with a superior sized enemy force which spreads itself out into one really long single row of troops?

I nearly won the battle last night, had them routing and all by just keeping position and hitting them with my Equites and General, but eventually their sheer numbers meant that I ran out of men in the end. Their units which routed kept coming back into play.

Any ideas?

Sounds like you might have done all that you could. Sometimes the AI comes at you with so much overwhelming force that you cannot win.

The most effective tactic IMO is the one you tried: mass your cavalry with your general and use it to chain rout enemy units. Keep hitting them in the rear while your other forces engage in the front. Once one enemy unit breaks, nearby ones are much more likely to crumble. I did this once in exactly the same kind of situation you describe and it was exhilarating (and worked), but it was touch and go. The important thing is to try to stop your cavalry being mangled - keep them moving and pull them out of a melee if it looks like you can't break the enemy unit without heavy losses; and charge another (or re-charge the same) instead. It can be important to pursue routing units so they don't rally but often you just can't spare the men.

A much more lame trick is just keep your general running away from the enemy. Concentrate on killing their cavalry and then they can't catch you, so as a defender you win. But that's an exploit and I really should not do it (in STW and MTW, you would auto-rout in such a situation).

Thanks for that. I couldn't see any other way to approach it, I just wondered if I was missing something obvious.

Out of interest, How would you approach it if you were the attacker (with a smaller force) and the defenders were superior in number and again ranged in a long single line?

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Originally Posted by Invicta

Out of interest, How would you approach it if you were the attacker (with a smaller force) and the defenders were superior in number and again ranged in a long single line?

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One useful tactic is the lure - try to induce part of the enemy line to break ranks and pursue you, e.g. by marching up a weak sacrificial unit that you then pull back. It is particularly effective if you have strong missile units and can hammer the pursuers. Even without missiles, you may be able to defeat the enemy piecemeal. It may be a little cheesy, but it work for William at Hastings...

More generally, I would try to provoke the enemy to attack - e.g. by raining missiles down on him - perhaps especially if I had manouvred to favourable ground (e.g. if I had gained a height advantage). I often find the AI does not make the best use of its missile units so if they are a big threat, I would try to take them out by preliminary "counter-battery" fire with my own missiles. Given him a screen of armoured or expendable targets in loose formation to fire on, while your missiles target his missiles.

Otherwise, I would try to flank the enemy, so that he is unable to use a double envelopment on my flanks and I can fight him on more even terms. If he is on a hill, try to manouvre so as to approach from the least steep angle and rest the ridge from him. I would aim to use "salami slicing" tactics again, of concentrating overwhelming force on a few of his units to break them and so demoralise (& ultimately chain rout) the rest.

Again, careful use of cavalry would be essential - I might leave the infantry to duke it out, outnumbered, but I would micromanage the cavalry so as to maximise their impact. Neutralising his cavalry or other elite units would be a particular priority. That's one reason for trying to induce the AI to attack - so he will advance his cavalry and you can deal with it before exposing your own.

But to be honest, I would try to avoid attacking a numerically superior enemy force. If you just stand your ground on the campaign map, the AI will tend to come to you and it is easier to defend than to attack. The only time I would attack would be when I either had a marked qualitative superiority (Romans or a high star general); or when the enemy had several separate stacks and I wanted to stop them uniting.

concentration of force...hit a flank with your whole force to attain local superiority of numbers, while 'refusing' with the other flank.
the wikipedia page on Epaminondas and his victory at Leuctra has a good description of this, he is credited with inventing the right flank refuse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra

also sometimes the AI will attack you even when it's nominally the defender if it has a superior numbers, then you can pick your ground.
if you have skirmishers you could try enticing the enemy general out and cutting him off.

Firstly, set all your hastasi, principes and other missile units on fire at will. you could have 2 or more rows of hastasi/principes, depending on the size of your army. One row fires, retreats behind the next row and the other row does the same and so on, and the four shots per hastasi/principes can cause a lot of damage.

Then, flank them with your infantry. If the line is very long, try to attack one side of it. Do NOT allow them to surround you at any cost, while your missile units shoot either their lowest morale unit or general (units routing can sometimes cause a mass rout, and killing the enemy general leads to a huge drop in morale for the enemy army).

When fighting, use your cheapest infantry unit, or triarii (if available) to engage their cavalry if you can, while your cavalry smash into them in the rear. This destruction of their cavalry leaves you superior: you can now outmaneouvre and flank the rest of the enemy with one unit as a lurer and the rest of your cavalry flanking them. Always be sure that your enemy can't flank you, and regularly pause to check for oppurtunities to rout enemy units. A few routs and the massive whole army rout will occur, leaving your cavalry to clear up the mess.

However, this might not work if your enemy is outnumbering you by over 2:1 and using high-quality troops or masses of cavalry.

Don't let your general die or your troops who already suffer a morale penalty due to the enemy numbers will lose heart and rout.

Because the routers can come back, there's always a temptation to try to wipe them out with your cav. When you're grossly outnumbered, don't succumb to the temptation; keep the cavalry moving and routing more units, not finishing off the ones that are already running. Even if they re-form, their morale will be crappy and they won't be able to take another serious charge. And if you can get everyone routing at once, you win.

Hi

I would approach this situation very differently.

You stated the besieging force is adequate. I would take the offensive and capture the town quickly before the big enemy stack arrives. The enemy reinforcing army is then outside and you control the walls, towers and plaza.

Mobile forces go outside the walls to rout weaker enemy units. Those routers rush towards the plaza which you control/guard. They impale themselves on your forces guarding access into the plaza.

From RTW V1.5 M/M
Marginally superier Thracian forces attack Julii beseigers. Julii capture walls and gates. Here the garrison of Thracians hold the plaza still. Yet Julii are controlling the walls.
https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/81...p1030yz.th.jpg

Had the relative strengths been more against me I would have had a tougher fight thats for sure.
https://img105.imageshack.us/img105/...p1042tz.th.jpg

Sometimes, an aggressive tactic can help as well. In my experience it works best with phalanx units (you´ll need about six of them), but I suppose you could try it with Roman infantry as well. Place your infantry in one straight line, skirmishers in front, archers behind and move up at the enemy. Try to literally push them from the battlefield. It´s risky, of course, because if the enemy chooses to slug it out, chances are you´re overwhelmed. And in Rome a field victory is less decisive than in Medieval.

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Originally Posted by Severous

Hi

I would approach this situation very differently.

You stated the besieging force is adequate. I would take the offensive and capture the town quickly before the big enemy stack arrives. The enemy reinforcing army is then outside and you control the walls, towers and plaza.

Mobile forces go outside the walls to rout weaker enemy units. Those routers rush towards the plaza which you control/guard. They impale themselves on your forces guarding access into the plaza.

From RTW V1.5 M/M
Marginally superier Thracian forces attack Julii beseigers. Julii capture walls and gates. Here the garrison of Thracians hold the plaza still. Yet Julii are controlling the walls.
https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/81...p1030yz.th.jpg

Had the relative strengths been more against me I would have had a tougher fight thats for sure.
https://img105.imageshack.us/img105/...p1042tz.th.jpg

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I do belive he was in that initial turn as a besieger when the large stack attacked him so he couldn´t take it before. Since it wasn´t the town garrison, but the larger army, that attacked him the battle will NOT take place on the town battlefield but another one, one tile away, in open country so he can´t take the town before the larger army arrives either.

@invicta,
The guys give good advice and I think you did what you could. One Important things is when you get the enemy into a mass-rout you have to pursue with your infantry from the rear while your cavs engage the routers in the front. This way they will never get a chance to recouperate.

That's a massive amount of archers Severous, how do you use them effectively in a siege? or even protect them from being destroyed by the enemy cavalry?

PseRamesses: Sorry. I misunderstood the reference to 'routing troops returning'...I thought that meant coming back after their visit to the Plaza.

If faced in the open field with a bigger enemy I recommend sending a cavalry unit to the enemy flanks. Even one weak unit will help pin the enemy army. Use local superioity in numbers against any units you can pry away from the enemy. All the time refuse battle if odds are not in your favour. Run the clock down if you can.

Tiberius: 4 archer units in that army. Not high but one of the largest concentrations I had. That was near the end of the campaign. My play style is micromanage and pause a lot. So easy enough to control. Tactics are usually the same. Gain control over the battlefield with cavalry, pour fire on any good targets, retreat before enemy infantry until all missiles gone or numerical advantage obtained. I kill few troops in hand to hand except with cavalry.