Printable View
I play as Greeks often, however I generally find that Spartan Hoplites are not worth it. You can only train/retrain them in a few cities, they take two turns, and if you have two Spartan Hoplites that means they have plenty of Elephants, or other ultimate units that tears my army apart, and because other civilizations ultimates are raised everywere you need a number advantage to make up for it.
I also feel cheated when I creat Army Barracks and it is exactly the same as City Barracks.
I train them, mainly because I like to have a mix of Spartans and Armored hoplites. Elephants are easy enough to deal with, get some peltasts and archers and they will never give you too much trouble. The main problem with the Greeks is their complete dearth of good cavalry, but that can be made up for with skillful use of bodyguards, Militia Cav and Greek Cavalry.
I just find it to be useless to send away all the way to Sparta for Spartan Hoplites, and then need to send them all the way back for retraining everytime they take some type of beating. I personally don't see why that is better then just having many Armoured Hoplites with Heavy Peltasts.
i find them quite useful against Romans. easily took Rome.
I generally use them until the unit is gone. Since I use them carefully away from missile units the unit is usually either obliterated quickly, in one spectacular battle, or very slowly. They are worth the trouble, and if you don't want to retrain you can always retire half-used units and just move new ones up....Tis a fitting fate for such great warriors to retire on estates that they helped conquer.
Uesugi: what self-respecting Spartan would retire before being 60? :P
Horatius: the Spartan hoplites can massacre any enemy on a bridge. (any army without v long spears anyway.) They are your most dedicated and strong warriors, with higher stamina than others and kill much more quickly. They are the secret Greek weapon: use them wisely.
I never actually retire them, I just keep throwing them into the fray until they are reduced to nothing, I do sometimes merge units of them too, that can give you some decent sized high-experience units of Spartans.
Unless I really need a change to my armies, i generally just stick to Armoured Hoplites, who are excellent.
Spartans are definitely worth it if you have a temple of Nike where they are trained. Sure they won't make up the bulk of your forces, but it's nice to have a few elites you can throw into the mix when you feel like it. Although Armoured Hoplites are like arrow-proof tanks at times and well able to cope with most situations on their own, but a bit of variation is always nice.
Horatius
you should try the extended Greek mod. It makes the Greek Cities a more well rounded faction. I've been having a lot of fun with it.
link
http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/index.php?mod=712
Actually, it makes changes to all Greek factions
edit: here's a link to the readme
http://homepage.mac.com/abradbury/xg...xgmreadme.html
phred... that Greek mod is ridiculously ahistorical. The Greeks did not change to Macedonian type phalanx, did not have elephants and how can they manage to conquer all four corners of the world? The Spartan trait has been changed.. he should make a new trait Spartiate. Now Flavius Julius seems to be a Spartiate, when he is in fact a Roman. (due to the change in trait bonuses and description) Phalanxes were fought under-arm, and the Romans did have races in their Circus Maximus.
If you want to play a historical RTW, do not touch this mod. Otherwise, ignore what I have just said.
Tiberius the Macedonians definately had War Elephants. That is how Pyrrus of Epirus won early victories against the Romans. The War Elephant became a part of Macedonian Warfare.
However you are correct, the Greeks never abandoned their version of the Hoplites in favor of Macedonian Style Hoplites.
I didn't download the mod, but I like some changes, but seriously do not like others, like the Greeks using Macedonian Style Hoplites, the Thracians where much closer to Greeks then Barbarians so their having theaters makes most sense.
I definately like the loose confederation idea though, and I like the non Mercenary Illyrians, Cretans, and Rhodians, although they do seem to have limited use because they can only be trained in one place.
Is there a way to download that mod and still be able to play the original game stuff or is it one or the other?
You can probably guess, I know more history then gameplay from the noob question at the end (yes I admit I'm a noob:book: )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatius
When you install the game it creates its own folder and desktop shortcut, so you can have it installed and play regular RTW.
The new units are fun to play with, and I like the different winning conditions for the Greek factions, although I didn't try to finish my Greek Cities game (too many provinces too conquer for me)
also, the Legendary Conqueror trait is fun to try and get: (from the readme)
"Legendary Conqueror: This is a special set of traits. If a Greek general achieves great victories on three continents then he gets the Legendary Conqueror trait, and "the Great" added after his name. Victories against fellow Greeks do not count. For "Victor in Europe" you must win a great victory against a Roman or Barbarian faction, for "Victor in Africa" either the Carthaginians or the Egyptians will do, and for "Victor in Asia" any Eastern faction will do. The conditions for a great victory are quite specific: The odds must be even or against you at the start. You must kill at least 70% of the opposing force, and you must walk away with at least 70% of your own force intact."
Epirus is not a Macedonian province: it is its own kingdom. Anyway, the Macedonians would have nowhere to get elephants from. The only time they used elephants were when Alexander's Macedonian troops were all the way in Asia!
Tiberius Pyruss was a King of Macedonia as well as Epirus, his early career was actually pretty good, his ambition was to become a new Alexander the Great (Instead the determination of Rome made his name become one with battles that just are not worth it) and yes you are right no Macedonian Rule of Elephant Breeding Grounds, however they did import them.
During at the time of Rome's war with Pyrus (SP) the Romans where the only major power not using War Elephants.
I agree with most of what you said, but the War Elephant did make it into the Macedonian War Machine for some time, the main reason why the Macedonians abandoned them was the massive expenses it took to import them made it just not worth getting them.
No independent Greek City State imported them though, so it is ahistorical for Greeks to have them, but not so much for the Macedonians.
In a Brutii campaign, I have been attacked several times by Spartan Hoplites.
I engaged them with Urban Cohorts in "silver" armour, and slammed heavy cavalry into their backsides.
My light cavalry and heavy cavalry combined and took down their Generals, and at the end of the battle, I had the Victory Triumph, followed by a Faction Destroyed, Greek Cities tile.
Strength and Honor.
Celt Centurion
You hadn't destroyed the Greek Cities before the Marian reforms as the Brutii? HOW?!
I saw one unit of Spartans in my Brutii campaign. I suspect it was a unit the Greeks started with rather than one it built.
First killed all the other units in the army including the general. Then weakened it with velite and hastati missiles. Surrounded and outnumbered the 80man Spartans routed when down to 50men. (Hard difficulty setting)
To me, the Greek Cities were Neutral. We had a trade agreement. I left them alone, and they left me alone, and I was busy enough fighting the Macedonians who attacked me first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberius
Although the Senate kept telling me to attack the Greek Cities, I noticed that the Senate did not even have me as a ally, nor did the other Roman Factions. When I tried to make alliances with them, "alliance" was not even on the list of options my diplomat had.
So, I had peace with the Greeks, and could concentrate on crushing the Macedonians. Eventually I destroyed them.
Several turns later, probably 40 years worth, The Greek Cities attacked me at Athens, which I had taken from the Macedonians. I totally destroyed the besieging Army. I also immediately laid siege to Corinth with a combination of troops from Salona, Athens, and Thessolonica. Within about 10 turns, I had destroyed the Greek Faction.
The Senate has not "outlawed" me yet, but unless I am already at war with whatever they assign me a mission to, I usually ignore them, as they are just another faction as far as I am concerned.
An recent exception was Thrace. I had a mission to blockade a Thracian port which I had been ignoring. Then I saw the Thracians sent a spy into Byzantium, and got me a "red" face for public happiness, and a riot which hundreds of my soldiers were killed. I immediately blockaded ALL of the Thracian Ports, and at this point have taken two of their cities, one of them a "Huge" one. They won't be around much longer either.
What I don't understand is why the Senate tells me to get a peace agreement with a faction, and then tells me to attack them the very next turn. I have also noticed that all of the Roman Factions change from War to Peace back to War with Thrace every turn. Another strange thing is the Julii which comes to me for an alliance every ten turns or so, and the alliance is broken on the next turn, none of it by my own doing. Am I the only consistent Roman Faction in the Equation?
Strength and Honor
Celt Centurion
dedection of spy's causing unrest.. I have not noticed that or checked the cities in that way.. maybe it's good strategy to always one spy and one assassin in your own cities...
If you're playing an unmodified version of RTW, you may find it tedious to keep training Spartans in Sparta and then transporting them around your empire. To speed things up significantly, all you require is a superior navy to your surrounding rivals. Once you control the sealanes, you can swiftly ship depleted Spartan units back to the capital, retrain them, and then redeploy them either at the frontiers of the empire, or as elite garrisons in selected settlements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Horatius
Spartans are like elite guard of any faction. You use them when it's vital you win. limit them to your core army and their limited supply shouldnt be a problem. They're also quite good for fronteer towns under constant attack where they'll butcher anyone who gets past the walls.