Best way to fight squalor?

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I looked in the guides and found nothing useful. So is there anyway to effectively fight squalor? I've built all the public health buildings but they don't help much and squalor is growing out of control in my main cities. I'm the Julii and it's becoming a pain in the rear end to control all my cities. I've lowered taxes all the way but that just causes the population to grow even further, raising squalor and also causing more unrest. What do you do to fight this problem? I'm reluctant to kill too many of my own people.:help:

Simple: keep building peasants to populate far away cities, or even better, BUTCHER 'EM! Since you already have 24k population, the extermination of the city won't do anything if you have the imperial palace built, and keep on building troops to keep population low.

Cowhead418

Ive seen experienced players say they dont build farms. Presumably so they do not increase an aleady high population growth. Some towns, Patvium, for instance grow fast enough without farms.

As you cannot demolish farms you dont have that solution if you have already built farms.

Building units fast ? To take men out of the town. Success of this depends on the unit scale you play at. Large=120men peasant unit...huge=240. But again if the town if very big and growing strongly you just cant recruit into the armed forces fast enough.

High taxes. Very High. That also slows population growth. But again if the problem is already severe then high taxes will cause a revolt.

Garrison. Up to 80% ? Have all the unrest controlling buildings ?

Enemy spies? Could they be causing unrest..counter with your own spies ?

I suspect that a revolt is going to occur. So rack up tax, withdraw you troops, and prepare for a fight.?

and then, prepare yourself for a hell of a lot of dead citizens.

My non-military cities I'm not too worried about, if I want I can just let them revolt and then kill the peasants that pop up. But I don't want to lose control of my military cities for 10 turns while I besiege a rebel army full of Cohorts. Recruiting peasants helps a little but the city is still growing too fast for that. My taxes have to be on the lowest setting or I won't be able to keep the city.

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Originally Posted by Severous

Ive seen experienced players say they dont build farms. Presumably so they do not increase an aleady high population growth. Some towns, Patvium, for instance grow fast enough without farms.

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Ive played RTW for over a year and a half, and I think farms are fine and essential in Gaul and Spain, if managed properly. Ive built level 3 farms at patavium. But I also balanced that with Academies, Colisseums and health buildings. Add to that a temple of Jupiter or Ceres (far away provincial towns) and squalor can be controlled. Eventually the population peaks at 40k, and all you really have to worry about from then on is plague - which is actually helpful.

Besides that, you should train lots of units there. Build a Foundry and top level barracks. Golden cohorts. Lovely.

Farms make money. Moreover, the higher the population, the more you can get back in taxes.

In any case, you'll never get rid of squalor, so don't worry too much about it.

Severous'

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But again if the town if very big and growing strongly you just cant recruit into the armed forces fast enough.

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There is a solution to this which is using a conscription mod of the export_descr_unit.txt file. With this form of mod you can recruit up to 9 units at one time. This can also be used to recruit other units in zero time.
The main thing about this modification is that you suddenly have a huge upkeep cost of troops recuited and recuit cost.

Thanks WarHawk.

Personally I am not a mod user. I will work with the game as officially patched and try to find the best solution within those constraints.

Im on RTW V1.5 H/H in my 2nd ever Imperial Campaign. Ive not reached the situation yet where Squalor is a problem. I am building farms. I am expecting problems later in the game..if I dont finish it fast enough. Larissa is growing very fast....

The Frog Goddess :bow: stated in her guide that you should try to keep city growth at 8% gross (adding up the growth factors, not the figure displayed in the city screen) and that works pretty well. You can get two or three farm levels, but definitely not above. Dito I don´t use growth temples, I rather go for law. Health buildings can help dealing with squalor as well, but you have to be careful since health also influences (increases) population growth.
I´d also abstain from enslaving, for various reasons. One is obvious: the first batch of slaves goes to cities with governors. Late in the game that will most likely be cities that already are at the maximum level, and those need anything but additional population. In the beginning of the game, however, enslaving can be a good way to reach the next city level (and the new palace building reduces squalor as well). Another reason for rather exterminating is it gets rid of more potentially troublesome population and gives more loot.

If you´re absolutely desperate because of overcrowded cities you can infest it with the plague. Any unit (that includes spies) can get the plague and when they enter a city they´ll spread it. It´s an admittedly nasty but nevertheless effective way of managing surplus population.

To be honest, I don't fight it really I pretty much accept it as a game factor when the cities are crowded...

Continually pouring out troops helps but not much in some cities... Problem is caused not by the Squalor itself, but by the Public Order penalty it gives you. The only way to 'fight' it is to compensate for this penalty with the happy buildings (note that the health building don't actually give Public Order bonuses and actually their growth bonuses will make things worse)... Maxing out on Garrison troops, maxing out temples, the arena and the circus (and after the last patch Acadamies also) and a high influence goveror (or one with good Public Order bonuses) is what is needed...

You need to accept though that your heavily overcrowded cities are going to be troublesome, it is simply part of the game and thus the challenge...

This is local government, you need to concentrate on fighting the symtoms of the problem, not the root cause... :2thumbsup:

I consider squalor and the revolts as population control. It seems the only thing some cities understand is extermination after a revolt.

The best thing to do I think is to give the city to a faction you want to go at war with, then just move your units back in it and slaughter.

I never exterminate. It is awful and contrived. Avoid building farms - cities that need anything beyond one or two upgrades are probably not worth having except to obtain a province number. Demolish the market or its upgrades. Demolish the church - well perhaps not. A plagued spy is perhaps the only contrivance I would use. Grain producing cities like those of Egypt or Londinium could be avoided as they boost growth massively.

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Originally Posted by Severous

Cowhead418

Ive seen experienced players say they dont build farms. Presumably so they do not increase an aleady high population growth. Some towns, Patvium, for instance grow fast enough without farms.

As you cannot demolish farms you dont have that solution if you have already built farms.

Building units fast ? To take men out of the town. Success of this depends on the unit scale you play at. Large=120men peasant unit...huge=240. But again if the town if very big and growing strongly you just cant recruit into the armed forces fast enough.

High taxes. Very High. That also slows population growth. But again if the problem is already severe then high taxes will cause a revolt.

Garrison. Up to 80% ? Have all the unrest controlling buildings ?

Enemy spies? Could they be causing unrest..counter with your own spies ?

I suspect that a revolt is going to occur. So rack up tax, withdraw you troops, and prepare for a fight.?

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When he says "withdraw your troops," I suspect that he means move them out of that territory, or if on an island such as Salamis or Palma, put them on a boat and get them off the island.

Otherwise, when the city revolts, they will do it with a full stack, or at least equal to what you had inside the borders.

Example: You have 10 units at about 50% strength, when they revolt, they will have 10 units at full strength. If you leave one unit, and withdraw the rest, the revolt will usually have only one unit as well. Be warned, if you leave the other 9 units anywhere inside the borders, the revolt will include 9 more full strength enemy units as well.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

to minimise squalor, kill of the different religion after you capture it, exterminate the people (= money) and upgrade the right buildings, in case of trouble built peasant units (helps 5-10%).

when the situation becomes to hectic, leave the city, let it revolt, come back when it's turned rebel. Then lay siege and wait it out... by the time they will decide to sally, their troups will be reduced massivly. Then take the city and exterminate (=money).

only thing... for some reason the cities are filled with old war hero's. So as soon as they rebel you will find golden and silver chevroned units... be careful!

Thanks for that clarification CeltCenturion.

Ive never had to resort to leaving a city and recapturing it. But if I did I wouldnt have thought about your tip of withdrawing my own army right out of the region.

Think I would prefer to face only one gold chevron unit rather than a stack full. Particulary as I would want to retake the city asap and not spend many turns seiging it.

Before you attack a city, have a strategy for getting it back on its feet quickly once its taken. Don't just plan win the war, plan to win the peace.

Distance to your nominated Capital effects population “happiness” as well as squalor, so you could look at moving your Capital….but be careful that you just don’t move the problem to other areas of your empire. There is a downloadable tool from the .org that calculates distance + happiness factors.

Also, concentrate on happiness buildings – arenas, temples etc – rather than sanitation. Good sanitation decreases Squalor BUT also increases population growth so, conversely, INCREASES Squalor.

However, increased Squalor, whilst increasing unrest also increases the risk of Plague hitting the city so perhaps high squalor isn’t such a bad thing.

Governors – make sure you have a governor with a high “scroll” score. Or create one using positive management retainers from other generals/governors.

Make sure you have at least one spy in each settlement to counter other spies and diplomats trying to sow unrest by trying to bribe the garrison.

Always look at the settlement detail scroll and at what is making up the “unrest”. Target specific causes (apart from squalor). If the garrison isn’t at 80% positive, then increase it until it is, if the settlement management is poor or non-existent then deal with that with a suitable Governor.

In my experience, Culture penalties are the worse. Try to ensure you overwrite the other cultures buildings as soon as you can….Always.

I do have one related question….

….we know that “distance to capital” effects happiness but does the location of your faction leader? It used to be a factor in Medieval, but then you couldn’t move/nominate a “capital” in that game. I just wondered.

oh I forgot...
I also remove the 'home' army barracks and such.... then when they revolt they have mostly peasant armies...

my 100st post!! woohooo!!

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Governors – make sure you have a governor with a high “scroll” score. Or create one using positive management retainers from other generals/governors.

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I thought that at first as well, but to keep unrest down the governor needs high influence. Management skills are nice, since they increase profits, but influence is vital for keeping controll.

Influence and some retinues/virtues that keep public order.

just kill them... kill them all those complaining wankers!!!!

:-)

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Originally Posted by Braden

….we know that “distance to capital” effects happiness but does the location of your faction leader?

I just wondered.

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I think if a particulalry riotous region e.g. Greece (especially Bylazora, Thessalonica and Larissa), has serious public order issues, then the placement of a governor with high influence or a faction leader/heir in one of the settlements can have a slight ripple effect on the neighbouring regions, thus improving public order in that area.

Ive seen signs of this, but nothing concrete.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

I´d also abstain from enslaving, for various reasons. One is obvious: the first batch of slaves goes to cities with governors. Late in the game that will most likely be cities that already are at the maximum level, and those need anything but additional population.

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This is no longer true. Since patch 1.2 or 1.5 those slaves will go to any adjecting city you are not at war with. A governor is no longer required to get all the benefits of slaves.
As you also mentioned, enslaving is essential early in the game. Most of all in areas with different culture and in low populated areas, just to boost your population. Later I will never enslave. I still think that the use of slaves do increase the chance to become some brigants and rebels.

Build law shrines, law shrines are easily the best for keeping to population content any shrine with a law bonus over their happy bonus is ideal.

You know what would be nice. If you exterminate a population, the surrounding cities rise up in revolt because they now hate you. That would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Cowhead418

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I looked in the guides and found nothing useful. So is there anyway to effectively fight squalor? I've built all the public health buildings but they don't help much and squalor is growing out of control in my main cities. I'm the Julii and it's becoming a pain in the rear end to control all my cities. I've lowered taxes all the way but that just causes the population to grow even further, raising squalor and also causing more unrest. What do you do to fight this problem? I'm reluctant to kill too many of my own people.:help:

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Did you make sure that pop growth is not over 8%? If you made too many farms, there is no way to undo that.

I think the pop growth from enslavement to adjacent cities is broken (even at 1.5). The first one or two rounds are fine then I never see pop growth in adjacent cities. So in effect, the enslaved people just disappear.

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Originally Posted by Celt Centurion

When he says "withdraw your troops," I suspect that he means move them out of that territory, or if on an island such as Salamis or Palma, put them on a boat and get them off the island.

Otherwise, when the city revolts, they will do it with a full stack, or at least equal to what you had inside the borders.

Example: You have 10 units at about 50% strength, when they revolt, they will have 10 units at full strength. If you leave one unit, and withdraw the rest, the revolt will usually have only one unit as well. Be warned, if you leave the other 9 units anywhere inside the borders, the revolt will include 9 more full strength enemy units as well.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

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I'm having to correct myself here. Lately, and I mean just the past few days, I have evacuated my army in preparation for a revolt to the point of putting them on a fleet, and sending them out to sea.

Then I cranked taxes up to "very high."

Folks, When that city revolted, and all I had near it was 2 or 3 units retraining, it STILL had a full stack when it blew, with "gold" armor, and there isn't even a foundry there.

To my good fortune, it only cranked out peasants, archers, and light cavalry, which my "tougher" units chewed up upon landing.

I wonder if setting it at "very high taxes" increased the number of rebel units popping up in the revolt?

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion