Public message of lt1956 leaving EB modification

Hello,

I am writing this announcement to let everyone in the community know I am no longer working with EB mod or an EB Team member. I resigned as of today because the majority of the team decided to accept donations, when I joined EB they were not accepting donations. I have always been strongly against Game Modifications accepting donations, and because of such have decided to leave EB mod.

This announcement is in no way to be viewed negatively for EB or the Team, I feel the team is doing a wonderful job on the mod and look forward to their finished project. It’s just that since the decision was made to accept donations I do not want my name attached to the mod team roster.

My only reason for posting this message public (legality) is for CA and the community to know I have no connection from this point on with the EB modification or its decisions. My leaving was done in a friendly manner and accepted in a friendly manner by the team leader and team. I will exclusively focus on my SPQR modification from this point on. I had a wonderful time working with the EB team and wish them well. :thumbsup:

Sincerely,

Lt1956

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Originally Posted by lt1956

Hello,

I am writing this announcement to let everyone in the community know I am no longer working with EB mod or an EB Team member. I resigned as of today because the majority of the team decided to accept donations, when I joined EB they were not accepting donations. I have always been strongly against Game Modifications accepting donations, and because of such have decided to leave EB mod.

This announcement is in no way to be viewed negatively for EB or the Team, I feel the team is doing a wonderful job on the mod and look forward to their finished project. It’s just that since the decision was made to accept donations I do not want my name attached to the mod team roster.

My only reason for posting this message public (legality) is for CA and the community to know I have no connection from this point on with the EB modification or its decisions. My leaving was done in a friendly manner and accepted in a friendly manner by the team leader and team. I will exclusively focus on my SPQR modification from this point on. I had a wonderful time working with the EB team and wish them well. :thumbsup:

Sincerely,

Lt1956

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Hi

I don't know how big your contributions were to the mod, yet I have the tendency to think EB is losing a very skilled 'modder'.

On the other hand I would like to ask the question, which has arisen whilst reading your post: wherefore will the donations be used? Bandwidth? Or personal fees for the 'modders'...?

Donations are voluntary, so I personally dont see the problem. Good luck to you though lt56 and thanks for your own mod SPQR! and yes, EB will be losing a heck of a talent.

For costs I would assume. Taking money for personal fees would probably be crossing the line. Although he does mention legality so perhaps this is what they are doing? Seems odd to quit a team in this manner if all they are asking for is optional reimbursment of legitimate costs. Is there a public statement from the team about this? After the incident with RTR I think it would be good if everything was upfront and transparent. For the sake of appearances if nothing else.

Lt I really enjoy your work. Good luck continuing your own great mod.

As for the purpose of the donations (this can be found on the EB website):

"Donation Disclaimer
The Europa Barbarorum project is a modification of Rome: Total War and thus free of charge for anyone who wishes to download and play it. And that was the intention from the inception of the project and will of course remain so for the future.

However to get this Mod out Vercingetorix purchased a domain server and the cost of maintaining it and use of bandwidth has been so far paid by him out of his own pocket. This was doable before the open beta as the amount of bandwidth used was minimal, but after the release of the EB Open Beta the bandwidth use virtually exploded and thus the EB team decided after debate to add a Donations button to help Vercingetorix pay for the server and bandwidth used.

The money generated from donations will only go for maintaing the server and paying for bandwidth. When the needed amount of money has been met, the Donations button will be removed.

And should you donate, then the EB team thanks you for helping to keep the Mod available for download for others!!"

Ah, well that's that then. Thanks LordElrond.

First, let me just say on behalf of the EB team that we are disappointed that LT has chosen to leave, and wish him the very best as he undertakes further improvements to his fine mod, SPQR.

That said it's unfortunate that his departure notice was framed in such a way that questions have arisen about the legality of EB's actions with respect to donations. First of all, the team has not made a final decision on this matter (although we are leaning strongly toward it), and I can promise you that in the event we will provide full visibility into both the amounts received and the costs they are intended to offset. This is not and never will be a profit making enterprise.

I did inform LT that his reference to "legalities" had cast a cloud over the entire mod team, and he responded (on our internal forum), that such was not his intent. Although internal conversations are intended to be private, in this rare case I think that particular point is critical - and so I have accordingly excerpted the relevant portion of his answer below. Hopefully this will lay the matter to rest and we can move forward on important matters like squashing bugs and adding enhancements to EB, one of the finest mods - and mod teams - I've ever been privileged to associate with.

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Originally Posted by lt1956

......As for legality, well anyone over the age of 18 should be able to read that I DONT agree with Donations, and that is the cause of my leaving, I see nothing in the post to suggests foul play with the donations. I clearly stated my reasons being that Donations go against what I believe, if that makes you feel I am taking the moral high ground I cant help that, I do believe I am right, but I respect the members choice.......

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Everything makes sense and seems perfectly fine. I just hope this thread doesn't spiral out of control... as is the tendency with anything slightly out of the ordinary among online communities. Perhaps the thread shouldn't even be furthered and locked, as the initial statement was made by LT and that's really all there is to it. There is no need for further comments.

Being the cynical bastard I am, for some reason I trust the EB team in that the only purpose for donations will be for upkeep and not personal gain. Plus, how much gain could a team of dozens make with a few dollars here and there anyways? (Rhetorical, don't answer)

Maybe it'd be nice to put up the inital bandwitch and whatever else costs up front sooner rather than later, just so people get an idea of what's going on excactly.

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Originally Posted by Wonderland

Everything makes sense and seems perfectly fine. I just hope this thread doesn't spiral out of control... as is the tendency with anything slightly out of the ordinary among online communities.

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The donation money is not for upkeep.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It is intended for EB's personal "chips, beer, pot and porn" fund. We feel it is the best way for you the users to pay us for the mod.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm evil. :devilish:

I feel kinda bad as I started a thread on donations and shortly thereafter the donate button appeared on the website. This is a classic example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy and I'm sure that there was internal discussion prior to my suggestion.
Even so I'm nonplussed that a modder would choose to leave the project for this reason. As far as I can tell the EB team is not aggressively soliciting donations, and in any event as the word itself suggests donations are a gift, not an exchange of goods and/or services for money. Perhaps the gentleman (I'm assuming the 'man' part) in question might also like to consider that a monetary donation in this case is also an opportunity for someone like me with neither the skills nor much free time (terrible excuses, I know) to contribute to EB and thus feel a part of the team (in a way). It's a chance for us to belong.

I personally would not mind in the least if the members of the EB team profited a little as it seems to me they've been working their asses off. They have brought me a lot of joy. I am delighted to be able to show my appreciation. I am truly sorry if that has created a situation that a team member found intolerable, but I have to admit that I don't see any moral or ethical problems. Again, I just want to apologise for any internal problems that I may have contributed to.

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Originally Posted by oudysseos

I feel kinda bad as I started a thread on donations and shortly thereafter the donate button appeared on the website. This is a classic example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy and I'm sure that there was internal discussion prior to my suggestion..

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Actually, no. EB has always intended to be completely free (ie without pushing for guilt induced "donations") for the community. But don't feel bad, it was bound to come up at some point as Vercingetrix had graciously been paying for everything out of his own pocket.

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Originally Posted by oudysseos

Again, I just want to apologise for any internal problems that I may have contributed to.

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No probs mate.

I personally won't be a part of any community mod that seeks to take advantage of public generousity. EB is being made for you guys, and god help me or anyone else who seeks to change that and personally profit by it.

my2bob

Long time no post. I've been busy with a new job of mine.

This is bad news, LT1956 won a modding award so I'm going to assume this is a big blow to the EB community.

I for one don't understand his motives. The issue of legality has been addressed, both here and on the donation page, and the explanations are fine. On top of which I can name 5 other communites which host mods. Simtroplis, a community which hosts other peoples creations, asks for donations. It's very popular and the money is for, guess what, bandwidth.

So, with that aside, what else could be the problem?

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I have always been strongly against Game Modifications accepting donations, and because of such have decided to leave EB mod.

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So there is the truth. You just 'don't like them'. With that in mind, I have a feeling that this post is a final stab from the grave rather than a true concern for legality.

If you feel donations are bad business, then fine. But why bother dress this thread as a precaution against legal action when clearly the EB team has done nothing illegal?

I also find it a bit harsh that LT1956 would demand that Vercingetorix pay for the site and traffic all on his own. Or perhaps expect the EB team to cough up the payments. Sure, it's less romantic if they ask for donations, they're not going out on a limb for us. But whatever, I'll cough up a few bucks if need be.

I would understand LT if EB was charging for the product, or maybe patches. But donations are free will gifts. Even churches ask for tithings. Any institution out there that does not make a profit off it's work usually always asks for public support. Why should the modding community be exempt from this? It's perfectly normal and I can't find one reason as to why the donation button should be taken down.

LT's logic is lost on me.

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Originally Posted by Chester

LT's logic is lost on me.

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I don't know if that's entirely true, as I am inclined to agree with your earlier assessment of the particular logic in this thread's initial post. I'm a horrible cynic about this sort of thing however and am inclined to see everyone as pushing their own agenda (which is almost always their perceived advantage).

Wouldn't it be easier for, instead of the EB team asking for a donation, that Vercingetorix ask for donations in his role as a host rather than as a member of the team. Many websites ask for donations to help them keep running, whether they be hosting mods or not.

That would seem to solve problems for all concerned. EB isnt getting the money, Vercingetorix is.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Chester

LT's logic is lost on me.

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It takes more grace to accept help from someone than to give it yourself.

I think that at least one aspect of some team members' (I assume there's more than one who agree with LT or they wouldn't have taken the button down) antipathy to accepting money from the hoi polloi is that there is an implied element of being able to control what you pay for. As long as something is a gift, it is up to the giver to decide what the gift will be. As soon as it becomes a sale, the customer, as they say, is always right, and may feel the right to assert influence over the product. Try as I might I can't but help think that there is a little 'If we can't play my way then I'm taking my ball away' attitude on the part of LT- or at least an unwillingness to accept the wishes of the majority. It's his right (I'm not trying to flame him) but I find it a little sad.
If this is at all the case then I am sorry but it seems like there's no way for the EB team to accept our help in a way that please everybody.
Assuming that in a perfect world the people paying for the site would like to spread the burden around a little, might we not find a third way?
How about EB T-Shirts? I would buy one like a shot. EB has some of the best artwork I've ever seen on a computer game and ye should be proud proud proud of the quality of the work you've done. Surely it couldn't be too hard to print up some shirts with faction logos and/or the antique map, figure out the print run you'd need to cover the costs of the bandwith and offer them on the website? You guys have the most hits of any mod on the org- that's a huge fanbase of many people who would love to have a tshirt especially if they know it's to help cover the overhead. This is a variation of the church bake sale- you're not charging for the service you provide but you would be allowing your fans to chip in, in a way that hurts nobody's feelings. I hope someone on the team looks into this.

I am really glad that I did contribute while the button was up- I only wish I had given a little more.

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Originally Posted by Foot

Wouldn't it be easier for, instead of the EB team asking for a donation, that Vercingetorix ask for donations in his role as a host rather than as a member of the team. Many websites ask for donations to help them keep running, whether they be hosting mods or not.

That would seem to solve problems for all concerned. EB isnt getting the money, Vercingetorix is.

Foot

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The money that is donated goes directly to Vercingetorix. And he has stated he will show the amount of money needed and how many donations have come in.

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Originally Posted by oudysseos

I am really glad that I did contribute while the button was up- I only wish I had given a little more.

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In that case thank you and the Donations button is still up but at the front page. The donations button has been moved to the front page, we felt that having on the downloads page sent the wrong message

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Originally Posted by Krusader

The money that is donated goes directly to Vercingetorix. And he has stated he will show the amount of money needed and how many donations have come in.

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I realise that, but that was not my point. People have been talking about donating to EB and that this money would go toward bandwidth coverage and the hiring of the domain name, but this is why lt1956 left, because the money was going to EB for the upkeep of the site (that Vercingetorix would be one getting the money was not the issue, it was the association). It would make sense, therefore, to have Vercingetorix ask for donations, not as a member of EB, but as a website hoster. Thus the money is no longer associated with the mod but still performs the function of upkeeping the mod. Vercingetorix holds control over the site and bandwidth and is simply lending the site to EB for the hosting of its mod.

The difference is small but it certainly is not superficial.

Foot

Guys its simple I didn’t want the potential to happen as it did to RTR, for me the legality part is "IF" something went wrong I was protected, that is all. I didn’t like the Idea of asking for Donations when my alternative was to have all of us on the team chip in and help Verc out ourselves. I liked the EB team alot, And if the majority is willing to risk accepting money from the public then that is fine. I didn’t believe enough safeguards can be put in.

I have my reputation with my SPQR mod and the community and "IF" something somehow went wrong I didn’t want my name to be in the middle of it. So yes I had my Doubts about the money and the always possibility of misuse that can arise from it. I tried to make my message as clear and friendly as possible, but Khelvan still wasn’t pleased, that is his right, as it is mine to leave if I feel I don’t want to be involved with money donations.

I was not against Verc getting some help and I trust him and I was willing to chip in with the team instead of donations, I always see a danger when dealing with money based off of IP's, because after all we never truly know each other on a forum.

I didn’t move this post to this forum the moderators did, I was just making a public announcement for protection of my part. While donations are legal any possible misuse is not and that was my thinking and worry at the time. I tried to keep the other aspect of my personal worries to myself, but I wish not to be an escape goat especially after some of Khelvans actions toward me.

Sincerely,
Lt1956

Is there a way to know now what the costs are of the bandwith and whatnot? I really have no clue as to how it works, so I donated a small amount for now. I don't know what the proportions are and all that...

As soon as we have all the information from Paul it will posted on the site, I assure you that if it's not EB will be losing at least one other member ~;) .